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up4air
McNasty
Joined: 20 May 2009
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   Topic: East Coast carnage video
Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 2:47pm |
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More water, please.
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ThrowYaMittsUp
Tricky Woo
Joined: 08 Jul 2008
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Posts: 205
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 7:59am |
Gotta love the Gauley! 
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"Call on God, but row away from the rocks." ~H.S. Thompson
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irenen
Big Boofer
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 11:14am |
Maybe no one we know is on there, but plenty of us could have been, including me plenty of times. But what the heck, let's do everything we can to make new or struggling boaters feel like crap and make them feel like there's an 'in' and an 'out' crowd, OK?
I know a lot of you will think I'm taking this the wrong way, and I am sure that some of the people in the video would think it was funny, but I guarantee you that some of them would not. This video feels like Clique Central, I personally hate it.
Not that I have any strong opinion about it. And on another note, it's nice to see you on here again Brian. :)
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It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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ThrowYaMittsUp
Tricky Woo
Joined: 08 Jul 2008
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 11:59am |
I see your point Irene. That is definitely what the creator of the video was going for. He is a video boater on the gauley and this was an entry in the video boaters challenge in Fayetteville, WV. My favorite part about it though is that they are spoofing Wagon Wheel. You really do have to witness the Gauley madness in person to appreciate it. There has been a few time where I could of been a star in this video. 
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"Call on God, but row away from the rocks." ~H.S. Thompson
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irenen
Big Boofer
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 12:58pm |
Brian, if I had more courage I would link to a photo (which is floating around online out there but people rarely find it) of me that is the Mother of All Bad Kayaking Photos - also edging out the competition for Least Attractive Photo of Anyone, Anywhere, Ever. (Courtney and Charles, you can back me up on that one. :)
It eclipses everything in this video by a mile, and I'm sure for the people who made the video it would fall into prime 'club boater' territory, but it was my first time down Boulder Drop and if it had ended up going into a snarky video, at that time, I would have thought twice about running Boulder again. Who needs more fear, stress, and potential humiliation added to the great sport of whitewater kayaking? The river handles all of that just fine. :)
Fortunately I ended up boating with the great people who run the Sky regularly, you included, and never once felt like I was being looked down on when my skills weren't up to snuff. That's how people go from Class III to Class IV and beyond, enjoyably.
One of the great things about whitewater kayaking is the people who do it - it's the first group of people I've found in any activity that I almost universally like, and I think it's because whitewater tends to make people humble. (I even wrote a post about it once, Why Kayakers are Nice People - http://www.ireneskayakingblog.com/other-stuff/water-always-wins-why-kayakers-are-nice-people/ ) Generally carnage videos are funny, but when I see something that specifically targets less experienced boaters in a way that makes kayaking seem like one big Clique Fest it kind of changes the whole tone.
I know most people probably think I'm making too much of a big deal about it (and seriously, I do have to get back to my day job here at some point - unless James wants to put me on the payroll... What's that? Not on your life? OK... :) but kayaking is such an amazing, unusual sport, partly because of the people who do it, and anything that turns beginners off of it for the wrong reasons misrepresents the sport and the people who do it, in my opinion, and is worth talking about.
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It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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irenen
Big Boofer
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 1:02pm |
But don't worry, I am done now. 
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It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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CEEMGEE
WW Industry
Aquasports Paddling Store
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
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Posts: 21
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 1:17pm |
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Chicka chicka ;.)
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irenen
Big Boofer
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 1:31pm |
OK, OK, I said I was shutting up. 
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It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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AaronS
Paddler
Joined: 17 Feb 2010
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 1:43pm |
Thanks, Irene. I had the same reaction. Mostly because I'm still in that Club Boater phase. I, too, have had the good fortune to have excellent and experienced boaters help me navigate Boulder Drop, pick me out of the water after swimming House Rocks at nearly 5000 (way over my head at the time), and give me numerous technical and philosophical pointers. I've gained confidence and skill because of those who have helped me (including you, Irene). So, thanks.
I like to watch the carnage, but in the pursuit of anything worthwhile (well, anything at all, really), everyone starts somewhere and belittling that phase of development only reduces the likelihood that someone else will find the same pleasure and success that we get from our sport.
That's the most I've ever contributed to this forum. Sorry it sounds so serious.
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Fish
Big Boofer
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 2:04pm |
Good discussion. Having just come home from the Gauley (like Brian) the scene out there is much different than here. Gauley Fest for example hosts paddlers and paddle clubs from all over the US, and the atmosphere out there is crazy. Carnage is encouraged and even rewarded (just ask JP)
Out here swimming has this negative stigma, out east, heck you can become famous with videos like this. Point is, laugh when its funny, Everbody swims. encouage the new folks to stick with it, and try to remember we all had to start somewhere.
Edited by Fish - 26 Oct 2010 at 5:41pm
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James
Admin
Sum Dum Guy
Joined: 31 Dec 2004
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 3:36pm |
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I think carnage reels are highly important. It is easy to get way to serious about stuff on the river (not that seriousness is not needed at times). I can recall a few times that scenarios have brought about some wild arguments and tense times when it was all really just silly. Folks need to lighten up. This almost reminds me of the whole booty beer discussion in a macro sense.
Also try to remember that this little clip has nothing to do with developing boaters... This has to do with the folks like me right now. Those on the couch who just step right off to get served up a can O whoop ass. I have never once witnessed someone new being ridiculed because they carnaged out on the river. I have however given some folks a hard time who bumped right off the couch into a beatdown. In fact I wish that Brad X would comment because he is that guy the difference is that for some reason when he rarely does crash and burn he loves it...
I think that is what this video is all about. An ode to those wild kids who don't boat everyday and love getting worked.... It is not a video to get new boaters who want to get better worked up because they got worked on.
Edited by James - 26 Oct 2010 at 3:37pm
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JayB
Big Boofer
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 10:11am |
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I couldn't listen to the jingle since I watched it at work, but my first thought was - been there! As in - I've been that guy.
I can see where you're coming from Irene, but seeing carnage vids kind of actually helped keep me positive when it seemed like I was the only guy out there swimming and getting worked, since I was always tagging along with folks that were much better and more experienced than I was.
Not discounting your perspective here - but I think that for just about everyone, the way the folks you start paddling with treat you on the river will be waaay more important than what you see in a video.
Good discussion though - and a good reminder to remember what it was like starting out, and to look out for the least skilled/experienced member in the group (at least when it's obvious who that is - I usually try to speak up when I think I'm that guy). Particularly when deciding whether to scout vs read and run, etc, etc, etc.
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-Jay
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irenen
Big Boofer
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 11:05am |
Thanks for your comments you guys. Fish, I have heard from other people as well that the culture out there is different and probably some of my reaction has to do with not being familiar with that. By the way, you are one of the people I'm talking about when I mention really good boaters who are able to help out less skilled paddlers without making them feel stupid. I got some really good advice from you once that I still use, believe it or not - and it was just a mental thing. But it works. :)
Anyway, I'm not trying to beat this to death so this will probably be the last thing I'll say here, please bear with me. For the record, I generally like carnage videos and I LOVE self-deprecating humor. Usually when we look at carnage we're thinking, 'that could be me', or, 'I know how that feels'. I've never seen one before that was all about making a specific group of boaters look like geeks because they don't get on the water 'enough'. There's a photo somewhere on this site showing a terrified rafter being helped out of the water and someone commented on it saying 'the face of fear'. Someone else, I think it was JP, wrote a huge comment after that saying how ignorant that was and that it was exactly that kind of attitude that made people think kayakers were a bunch of elitist snotbags (OK, that's the short version). So obviously, some carnage shots are funny and somewhere along the line you can cross over into just being a snotbag. That's what this felt like.
I will be the first to admit that I have incredibly low tolerance for things that needlessly create an 'in' and an 'out' crowd, so I know my viewpoint will sound extreme here and maybe I'll read these posts later on and think I overreacted. Probably Aaron's opinion counts more than anything I said seeing as he is the only self-described 'club boater' who commented on here (thanks for posting Aaron! :)
OK, that's it - I'm taking a break and only posting my usual sarcastic little quips for a few days. Or cute dog photos. Thanks for hearing me out, everyone.
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It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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James
Admin
Sum Dum Guy
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 11:20am |
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Irene I can dig where your coming from with the Cliche's and Elitist attitudes cause that's out there for sure. I just didn't pick that up from the video. Now had it been Demsh*tz making fun of all the lesser paddlers it would be a bit different. I think it is great to have a well rounded community and it serves us well to consider all the different views out there, so I agree thanks Aaron and everyone else that contributes on and off river.
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jP
Rio Banditos
Diddle Fuerte Diablo !
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 11:44am |
 Well you KNOW I'm gonna weigh in on this one, so James- whoever these moderators are, you may want to cue them up. I think I'm s'posed to be one but I'm stepping out of that role temporarily for this:
First: It was such a relief to boat back in West Viginia (my old stomping grounds) where people have thicker skins about this sh*t than they do out here in the "Passive/Aggrassive" capital of the whitewater world. (sorry Irene-not aimed at you directly)
Second: You are all assuming these are "beginners". "Oh- those poor beginners are being PICKED ON"  They aren't necessarily. And if they are, Just maybe they shouldn't be running the UPPER GAULEY. It is a class V run after all, no matter what the sandbaggers will say. That's another view one can take, anyway. Some of these "club boaters" tend to plateau out and become "Ever Green" (not to be confused with "simple green") that is to say they can boat for the rest of their lives and never graduate from the "Driftwood Academy". Novice paddlers: Don't let this happen to you. Take your licks, and graduate.
Third: Carnage reels are FUNNY (at least most people seem to have drawn this conclusion). So why take it so PERSONALLY? Especially when you aren't even in it. Personally I see both sides of the coin: On one hand carnage reels are funny, and on the other hand (if you are the subject of them) they seem damning. It would suck to have your worst moments captured on video and be ridiculed, but the fact is that photos and video on the river are a fact of life now. There's no escaping it. Might as well hopefully be able to laugh at ourselves. We don't have a choice. "See the show or be the show".
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jP
Rio Banditos
Diddle Fuerte Diablo !
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 11:57am |
Lastly, if you see elements of paddling culture that are unappealing to you, just remember that is only a reflection of the "Holographic Universe", that is to say, contemporary society in general. It takes all kinds. The Gauley may as well be considered "Whitewater Metropolis". There are so many people running it on the 22 days each fall that it runs, that you'll see everything humanity has to offer: Style, grace and cool. Foolhardiness, idiocy, and sketchy behavior. Carnage and occassionally death. You'll see people helping out their fellow man, and selfish egos doing the opposite for their own petty amusement. Knights in Shining Armor, Action Heros, drugs and alcohol, nudity... even fights and the ossasional stolen boat. You get my point. More people equals more of a reflection of the larger culture. In other words, to say "kayakers are nice people" is another blanket statement that can't possibly hold water, much as we all would like it to.
If you want to escape from humanity via the river experience (as I often do), the PNW is a great place to be, in deep, frigid canyons away from prying eyes. Or if you want to interface and interact with the Chaos of humanity on the river (as I often do), go to the Gauley. Just like Fish says.
Back East people have much less tolerance for Driftwood Bullsh*t, as there is also a stronger Drifwood contingent. Realise that the cultural roots are much deeper there, more genuine, and quite frankly defined the sport as we know it decades before there was a guidebook for Washington.
to quote an aquaintance who quoted his friend: "I only boat with my friends. You're not my friend". I got a good laugh out of that story, being able to relate. That just may be the attitude you will openly encounter back there. It may be blunt, but it is honest. Just like "East Coast" culture as a whole. Ask Fish about how his friend treated me briefly above Lost Paddle one day. He thought I just randomly latched onto his group because I didn't introduce myself to him after hooking up with Fish at Pillow (no offense, Fish, but that is also your fault as much as mine for not introducing me formally, not that I mind.)
That stuff matters back there, for good reasons, and maybe should matter more here as well, but now I'm off topic.
My turn to shut up
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jP
Rio Banditos
Diddle Fuerte Diablo !
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 12:04pm |
As far as "In" and "Out" clubs, your "in" club will always be someone else's "out" club, no matter what. That's humanity. It's the old ingrained sense of tribalism manifesting its ugly head. I don't think it can be helped.
I feel as though I'll always be "out" of peoples' cliques here on this site, and "in" others. Its human nature. I remind you about one of the many longwinded essays in which I may have brought up "reverse elitism" as an example.
Ok supposed to be shutting up
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up4air
McNasty
Joined: 20 May 2009
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 1:14pm |
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Hey Irene, did you look at the video on YouTube? I wouldn't have posted this here if the comments sections didn't have entries like "Hey look at minute xx, THAT'S ME!!" - as if a proud moment. And not being a kayaker of course I felt a little apprehension posting this, but again I thought it was too good to pass over. I had my first legitimate "swims" last weekend, sans fins... (thanks to those who helped me out with gear and rescue!) in an IK both Sat and Sun and so far I think river boarding is easier technically but more exhausting physically. Gauley kicks ass from my ltd. experience on it. Interesting discussion, love you all... peace.
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More water, please.
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irenen
Big Boofer
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 4:45pm |
Hey there up4air, (since you asked me directly I will post again after saying I wouldn't :) no, I hadn't seen that, it does seem to put it in different light than I first saw it in and I'm willing to admit it probably was not meant the way I first took it. So, thanks for pointing that out.
I have never been on a run with a river boarder, would love to get video of that - do you take helmet cams?
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It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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up4air
McNasty
Joined: 20 May 2009
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Posted: 28 Oct 2010 at 9:38am |
oh do I ever! Been boring people half to death for nearly two years with my silly GoPro :). Most are here, http://www.youtube.com/tweakneeIf it comes up a notch or three I'll be on the Green this weekend.
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More water, please.
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