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JayB
Big Boofer
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
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Posts: 505
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   Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 4:21pm |
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Seems like all of this stuff comes down to:
1). Try to follow the Golden Rule.
2) Technical stuff.
In my experience, you can teach people technical stuff, but if they're not the kind of person who is naturally inclined to abide by rule number one - I'm not going to like them very much and will likely avoid paddling with them in the future.
I've also found that folks that aren't good about following rule number one tend not to be the kind of people that pack throwbags, use float-bags, help out with loading-unloading, check to see if everyone is okay on the river, take off before everyone is ready, etc, etc, etc, etc because all of those things require thinking about the other guy.
Having said that, as much as I try to follow rule number one and/or the technical stuff there are times when I mess up, fall short, forget, etc - so I appreciate partners that are mellow and gracious enough to forgive my screw-ups, and I try to do the same.
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-Jay
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djohnson
Viener Schnitzel
Joined: 25 Oct 2010
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Posts: 4
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Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 7:27pm |
Originally posted by slickhorn
Don't invite Leif.
Dude, what's the story here?
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mokelumnekid
McNasty
Joined: 09 Aug 2010
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Posts: 304
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Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 8:27pm |
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I second Jule- on-topic story: she practically walked on water to give me a hug when I hit my first combat roll on a crappy little nothing eddy line. Point being that hoisting that lame newbie on your shoulders when they make some small, but significant progress, can be about the most empowering thing in the world for them. Most everyone here is so far beyond that- but bringing along people with support and compassion is a direct measure of true champions. So however that spins up in the moment, remember that newbies generally aim to please, look up to the rest of you, and a kind word and sensible direction and patience with their hesitations can mean more than you might think. Just saying!
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SupaSta
Big Boofer
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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Posts: 603
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Posted: 06 Nov 2010 at 2:04am |
Originally posted by djohnson
Originally posted by slickhorn
Don't invite Leif. Dude, what's the story here?
Let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum, no matter how much you may think they are deserved 
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Life is short, paddle hard!
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SupaSta
Big Boofer
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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Posts: 603
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Posted: 06 Nov 2010 at 2:05am |
Originally posted by Jule
This is becoming very philosophical. 12-packs!!
Kayaking is really unique in the level of emotion and trust that is involved, and this is especially true if you have a mentoring relationship. I'm still very much in the learning phase of kayaking, and here are a few things about teaching and learning:
- Be kind and giving, and take people out on class II every once in a while. Share the joy!
- Work really hard on your roll! People seem to be enjoy taking out beginners a lot more if they don't swim every time they flip over.
- If someone takes you out kayaking, GIVE THEM GAS MONEY without being asked. If they say no, insist. People in the PNW are too polite to ever ask for yucky things like money, but they will be passive-aggressively peeved (I know I am).
- Give people a chance. Even if they're not as cool (yet) as you are, take them on slightly harder runs - you might be suprised by how well they do. Or not.
- If someone is generous enough to lend you their gear, give them some goodies. Beer speaks louder than words.
- If you destroy the gear that someone lent you, don't even ask if they want it replaced. Just replace it, or pay up. Same problem as with the gas money...
- Don't grossly overestimate your skills. Just because you once ran a class IV rapid (upside down, presumably) it doesn't mean that you should start off with a class IV rapid the first time you're back in your boat in 10 years. Especially if downstream is a walled-in gorge. If your paddling partners say, hey, should we just do that class II stretch downstream, beause I think this is too hard for you and you will be swimming a lot, take a minute to think about whether they might have a point. If in doubt, you may want to trust the judgment of the more experienced boater. Perhaps that will put you on something slightly below your skills, but it will also prevent an epic.
Great post!! 
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Life is short, paddle hard!
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GHannam
Tricky Woo
Joined: 12 Feb 2010
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Posts: 228
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Posted: 06 Nov 2010 at 8:16am |
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I'd also like to give props to Jule on her post-- well said!!
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rainpaddle
Paddler
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 85
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Posted: 06 Nov 2010 at 5:23pm |
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When shuttling back to get your cars have your keys in your pocket, please. ; 0
Cheers,
Rob G
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ChristianKnight
WW Industry
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 279
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Posted: 07 Nov 2010 at 10:55am |
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This is awesome. I'll be relying on your comments as I write. Thank you.
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Catch your eddies,
Christian
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Chuck e fresh
Master Poster
Post Jester - Round Tres
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: -362
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Posted: 07 Nov 2010 at 11:26am |
I think. Sometimes, there for I am sometimes. You should always have a good instructor if you want a good experience and that simply means ( and they could be your friend, if they know how to teach properly they will continue to be your friend after the run) If you’re a good instructor and friend, before you have taken the student/friend down they should have learned to roll in a eddy or pool then barley moving water and definitely be comfortable upside down. They should have hopefully learned some paddle strokes and water currents and hydraulics( If the instructor/friend has that knowledge) If they know nothing about paddling hard shells, I.K's are the way to go for a better first few experiences on the river. My first rules for someone to teach is 1) knowledge 2) demonstration 3) helping the student learn those two things. The first rule to for people with no experience in what they’re getting into is.. If you don't know, don't go! This applies to skiing snowboarding and all sorts of sports that require muscle memory and body kinesthetics.
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There's no such word as can't!so stop making excuses!!!!
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jaansdornea
Viener Schnitzel
Joined: 12 Jul 2009
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18
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Posted: 08 Nov 2010 at 1:26pm |
Originally posted by James
Don't use the following excuses for swimming.
My skirt was on wrong
The outfitting somehow came loose
I had way to much water in my boat
I could name some others but you get the idea... you can quickley get tagged as "that guy"
Damnit -- I suck! I've been that guy too many times. No more excuses for bad behavior. To all those that I've sheepishly given lame excuses to, I'm sorry. Next time the only words out of my mouth will be "I got scared" -- end of story. Too be honest, I hate myself when I swim and that probably isn't a good way to be. Please forgive me for being a royal A-hole.
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Ellingferd
McNasty
Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 418
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Posted: 08 Nov 2010 at 1:58pm |
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Oh yeah, definitely dont bump my boat. I mean ever. Seriously. Dont even think about it.
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Kyle K
Splat Wheeler
Joined: 27 May 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 149
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Posted: 09 Nov 2010 at 8:42am |
Sybille almost always has chocolate at the take out to share. That's a great way to get invited on other trips.
Pass it on! Take some time to help a less advanced paddler with their skills. If you're at a play feature or on a run with someone who is trying a move that you have down, and this can be someone you don't even know, try asking them if it's OK if you can help them out. (Asking permission is important! Most folks are happy to get a free lesson but some folks don't like it.) If they're open to it then give them a pointer or two. I've been the recipient of tips from many paddlers and it always
1. Improves my paddling.
2. Makes me wanna pass it on.
When you're with a group and a paddler does a really good move (in relation to their skill set especially) give them some props. Everyone likes to feel good about themselves.
Have fun! If you have a sunny attitude you'll bring the whole group up.
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"I used to be somebody, now I'm somebody else." Bad Blake
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STLboater
PP Junkie
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
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Posts: 886
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Posted: 09 Nov 2010 at 4:08pm |
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To bring back who has the right away when dropping into a wave...
I always feel that the person coming downstream has priority, especially on waves with eddy service. Once you are at the wave, you can keep entering said feature from the eddy, but you only have ONE chance to come at it from upstream. This is great practice for catching waves on the fly, and it is your only real chance for entry moves.
If you are coming downstream, be respectful of the person on the wave, make sure you make eye contact and they are aware of you coming down. Do NOT muscle your way on. Also, if you have a chance to make eye contact, try to catch an eddy, usually they will peel off the wave for you to come on down.
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Kayak Academy Whitewater Instructor
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STLboater
PP Junkie
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
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Posts: 886
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Posted: 09 Nov 2010 at 4:14pm |
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After 4 years of shuttling UPS kids to and from the river, I have learned my do not list for passengers.
1. Do not stuff the backs of the seat with trash. Do not leave half eaten food, please just try not to leave trash in my rig. I am not a god damn house cleaner, in fact, I gave YOU a ride to the river.
2. When taking boats on and off my car, be careful. I have lost the paint on the edges of the top of my car from people sliding boats on and off. Even the glass on the side doors and back panels is scratched. I also had a boat drop on the top of one of my doors denting it (thank god it wasn't a mirror). Things happen, but please be extra careful. It isn't just a kayaking rig (nice term)
(3) This is Univ. specific. Do not leave wet things in the back of my car because you are you do not have a place to dry gear at your dorm room. Figure it out, I am not going to find you after your stuff is dry. Discovering something that was stashed away wet for a week SUCKS.
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Kayak Academy Whitewater Instructor
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Hilneevel
Viener Schnitzel
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8
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Posted: 09 Nov 2010 at 5:07pm |
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I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned this yet, but try not to crowd eddies, especially on a tight creek. If you see the people in front of you eddying out above a rapid, and you can't tell how big the eddy is, start looking for your own eddy upstream of them until you're sure there is room for you down below. Tied in with that is leaving some space between you and the paddler in front of you. Don't put yourself in the position of having to be the second boat in a one-boat eddy.
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dave
Master Poster
D4
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4226
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Posted: 09 Nov 2010 at 5:36pm |
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Adding to the eddie etiquette, if you are the person in a one boat eddie and see other people coming in, dont just sit there and be an eddie hog, move out and make room for the upstream boater.
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Nomad
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doggievacation
Super Looper
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 170
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Posted: 10 Nov 2010 at 10:48am |
I'd just like to make one request for those of you who are (graciously) helping newbies: Please let us know BEFORE the trip if you intend to bring a newbie; don't just show up at the put-in with your new GF and expect the rest of us to play Rescue Rangers all day long. Nine times out of ten, other boaters will be happy to help out and make a run with a newbie. However, I may not agree with you that this is a good run or a good level for a newbie to be on, but if you just show up unannounced with a newbie in-tow, it's like you're trying to make a very important safety decision for the whole group. AND I HATE THAT!!!! Also, just because you put an newbie in a two-man IK, it doesn't make them invincible. They can still panic, dump the boat, and now we've got two swimmers to rescue, two paddles to chase down, and one big ass boat to try to wrestle to shore. Again, if I CHOOSE to boat with a newbie, I've accepted whatever risk to me that might entail. You have no right to make that decision for me or anybody else.  *Note to pedantic types: Yes, I have the option of loading up my gear and driving home if I don't think it's going to be a safe trip, but why should I be put in that situation? Just let us know ahead of time if you want to bring a newbie. That's all I'm asking.
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Don't waste water!
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water wacko
Master Poster
Team Jackson
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2137
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Posted: 10 Nov 2010 at 2:41pm |
I like this response:
Don't carry a thowbag.
Cut in line at play holes.
paddle hard rivers solo so you don't have to wait for a slow paddler.
Don't wear a helmet once you start feeling comfortable paddling class 5.
You only get to run a drop blind once.
NEVER SCOUT.
~ Tao
it is pretty funny 
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jP
Rio Banditos
Diddle Fuerte Diablo !
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4404
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Posted: 10 Nov 2010 at 4:14pm |
Wow. Nice thread you've started here christian! some many good points I hadly feel like I need to add anything (except: don't bump my boat- and if I'm taking a beginner out, please don't bump them or interfere with their lines down the river...)
Originally posted by Jed HawkesA few things... 1. wait to head downstream until the last boater is in their boat floating in the water. Not on the shore, or almost has their skirt on, but actually floating. The death on the little white last year could be attributed to this. 2. maintaining situational awareness ie. looking back upstream and keeping an eye on your buddy. 5. Proper placement of gear so that everyone has an opportunity to scout, and having one person assist with getting out of boats etc. ...not losing your gear because it may jeopardize the whole group.
... All of these sound like safety issues, but in my reality recognizing safety is tantamount to etiquette. By ignoring basic things that keep a trip safe, a paddler is ignoring etiquette.
well said dude.
And Franz raised some good points, particularly about loading zones:
What is it with kayakers that gives them a sense of entitement to spread their boats and paddles all over a f**king road? Man, when some redneck drives by and we got the spot all cluttered up that way, I'm f**king embarrassed to be associated with everyone. That sh*t is not cool. Makes me just wanna run the sh*t over- because yeah- I once loaned a paddle to someone to use after they lost theirs, and they set it down in a parking zone where another boater ran it over and neither of the fu*kers ever took responsiblitity. What's up w/ that? And it was a f**king Backlund Paddle, too. I'm still pissed about that.
....which reminds me: you see someone with a wood paddle, treat their stick ith 5 times the care you treat your own. It's porobably hand crafted, therefore worth way more than your generic factory made Werner or At.
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🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋
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jP
Rio Banditos
Diddle Fuerte Diablo !
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4404
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Posted: 10 Nov 2010 at 4:22pm |
Here's a bunch of sh*t I really agree with (the whole posrt really, but here are the highlights:
Originally posted by slickhorn
...I'd also add a little something about inter-group etiquette. Don't pull out of an eddy in the middle of another group. If you are the lead boat coming up on a slower moving group, don't just start charging through -- make sure the rest of your group is ready to pass as well and not 1 mile behind you.
You break it, you replace it. Paddle, throwrope, whatever -- I shouldn't have to ask you, you should just do it.
Pick up litter/microtrash .
plastic shavings from dragging boats.
Don't invite Leif.
plastic shavings: Way too many people drag their boats way too much. It's like Hansel and Gretal everywhere I boat that is popular. That plastic boat may be a beast, but it's your burden, making YOU the beast of burden, not it. From a conservational standpoint this at the very least makes our user group look bad. Pick up your damn boat and carry it. Man up or woman up or whatever.
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🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋
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jP
Rio Banditos
Diddle Fuerte Diablo !
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4404
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Posted: 10 Nov 2010 at 4:27pm |
Originally posted by STLboater
When taking boats on and off my car, be careful. I have lost the paint on the edges of the top of my car from people sliding boats on and off. Even the glass on the side doors and back panels is scratched. I also had a boat drop on the top of one of my doors denting it (thank god it wasn't a mirror). Things happen, but please be extra careful. It isn't just a kayaking rig (nice term)
yeah, but most of that is on you, dude. I you drive you gotta be Load Master. At the very least you gotta supervise the process. I know, though, it's prolly been a learing curve for you. Here's the thing with a lot of this stuff though: after a while, having paddles run over, getting punched in the face by the bow of a boat on a 5 boat wave, gettin your roof fu*ked up, ect. you get kinda agro about new comers to the sport doing the same sh*t over and over.
Don't make me pay for your learing curve.
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🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋
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STLboater
PP Junkie
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 886
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Posted: 11 Nov 2010 at 7:21am |
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You are definitly right about learning how to deal with newbies. I always supervise the boat loading process, but often you can't stop a bad act until it is too late. I guess I will forever be trapped in this cycle as I love bringing new people to the sport. But I also love boating with you core boaters!
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Kayak Academy Whitewater Instructor
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irenen
Big Boofer
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 525
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Posted: 11 Nov 2010 at 11:23am |
Originally posted by doggievacationdon't just show up at the put-in with your new GF and expect the rest of us to play Rescue Rangers
Wait.. you meant new BF, right?
Just kidding. This has been a really useful thread, but JP, I am now so paranoid about bumping into your boat in an eddy that I will probably hightail it the next time I see you on the river. ;)
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It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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Jed Hawkes
Rio Banditos
Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 814
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Posted: 11 Nov 2010 at 12:59pm |
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the boat bumping thing I feel is not just about bumping into a boat, but also peoples tendency to follow someone like lemmings to the sea into a crowded eddy and ignoring all of the other potential eddy options. Just a thought.
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The line will become apparent
978-273-7723
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mokelumnekid
McNasty
Joined: 09 Aug 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 304
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Posted: 11 Nov 2010 at 1:27pm |
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Wait- I'm a newbie, and who is this guy 'Eddy' everyone keeps talking about?
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