Professor Paddle: Near Miss vanlinelogistics.com Seattle Washington (WA) Warehousing & Order Fulfillment vanlinelogistics.com Seattle Washington (WA) Warehousing & Order Fulfillment vanlinelogistics.com Seattle Washington (WA) Commercial Relocation vanlinelogistics.com Warehousing & Order Fulfillment
Professor Paddle Professor Paddle
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
Home Calendar Forum FSBO Gallery PPages Reviews Rivers Links
  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch
Whitewater Forum
 Professor Paddle : General : Whitewater Forum
Message Icon Topic: Near Miss Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 2
Author Message
huckin harms
Master Poster
Master Poster
Avatar

Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1477
  Quote huckin harms Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 8:56am
Scott,
 
Glad you're ok.  Those kinds of experiences are the ones that make you question your reasons for doing what you love to do.  It can be tough to rebound from that... as previously mentioned =some form of ptsd.  Some folks would hang it all up following that kind of event. 
 
It's not surprising to hear that you finally flushed at the time you relaxed and 'quit the fight'.  That certainly has been my experience when circulating in the drowning machine... best thing to do is relax and hope, conserve that precious energy.  An easy thing to say or type but difficult at best when in the moment of crisis. 
 
I don't know if you said so... but, were you wearing a drysuit?  Not that it makes alot of difference or does it?
 
Another thought is the kind of lifejacket worn.  Some offer more bouyancy than others, although I recognize that any Ljacket is going to be tough to keep a cat afloat if the water is areated and the boil keeps pushing back into the trough. 
 
Again, glad you are ok, and none the worse for wear.  Remember, if it doesn't kill you then it makes you stronger.  Sorry that's gotta be the worst cliche ever, but couldn't help it ....
 
 
 
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
tradguy2
Master Poster
Master Poster
Avatar
Fabric Fanatic

Joined: 25 May 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1433
  Quote tradguy2 Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 9:49am
Originally posted by Scott_H

The self-image of being held with my head just below the surface straining to get up is going to stay with me for a while.
That image t is still seared into my mind.  It was pretty horrific.   
... preparing for a river beating!     
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
Scott_H
McNasty
McNasty
Avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 426
  Quote Scott_H Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 10:37am

Thanks Chip and Mike.

I was wearing a drysuit.  I don't know what would have happened with drypants, but the current was strong enough to almost pull one of my booties off and gag me a bit with my helmet strap.  I retired my drypants some time ago and a few stories have scared me from using them in the future.
 
In somewhat remarkable timing, the night before I had switched out my 2-3 year old Astral PFD (300) for a newly purchased Astral Greenjacket.  I had bought the new PFD because I wanted as much bouyancy as possible and figured my old vest had probably lost some.
“The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues.”
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
franzhorner
PP Junkie
PP Junkie
Avatar
outdoors music woodwork

Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 751
  Quote franzhorner Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 10:48am
I'm glad you are OK and have taken a positive reflection on your situation.  I've had a couple of gnarly near misses in my time boating and I know it can really occupy your thoughts for a while after...

My first gnarly swim was in guide training in 2001 when I swam from the left side of the entrance of Boulder Drop, back into the bubble pool, over the Needle (maybe Ned's), and then didn't get a breath until after Flypaper.  This was at about 5500cfs.  I believe I was under Flypaper as I remember rocks being above me and below me while circulating around in some dark water.  I had time to try multiple things down there including doing the cannonball and nothing got me out of the total beat down.  I gave up and let my entire body go limp and thought that was it.  It was kind of like passing out.  When I came to I was being shot out of the water almost to my waist just below Flypaper where I swam to a rock and started puking water.  I thought I was still in the rapid and had to be yelled at to get out of the river.  The first thing another trainer said was "get the f#4k out of the river",  "stand up!", and then "did you hit your head"?   In that swim I was worked up against the big rock in the entrance while really deep, took another beat down on the ledge going back to the bubble pool and then didn't get a breath for a long long time.  My face and entire body was badly bruised and it took a lot of fortitude to not portage Boulder Drop during the next days training.  Lucky for everyone else they were able to get out on river left almost immediately.....

I think that swim was really bad because I had dry pants on with a fleece top and splash jacket and a low float PFD.  Those pants turned into anchors and the PFD was about useless.

It took me years to get over that swim.  I used to get so nervous at Boulder Drop that I would portage.  I was tentative about running anything tougher than 3+ and used to be so nervous I would psych myself out on easy drops and end up going around every ledge and hole and missing all the fun.  Once my skills got better I very slowly started to get my game on.  Beings that this swim took place early in my career I progressed slowly in the sport....

Another beat down I took was in the last ledge of Godzilla on Yellowjacket Creek at way huge water.  I was swimming in there hanging onto my boat and paddle when another IK came in on top of me.  Hanging onto an inflatable in a hole will just keep you in the hole.  I remember consciously letting go of the boat and then trying to swim out of the backwash and I kept getting sucked back in over and over again.  Then I remembered that I needed to go deep so when I came up in the back wash I swam upstream, caught the water coming over the lip, did the cannonball and ended up coming out about 30 feet downstream.  You know you went deep when your ears pop!  it took my buddy a long time to come out too and he also had to let go of his boat to do it.....

I think keeping calm and knowing you can't fight under water currents is the most important thing when swimming in violent water.  The river has you sometimes and the river will let you go if you are going to make it out.

Cool like Fonzi, Eye of the Tiger!
MORE RAIN PLEASE
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
jP
Rio Banditos
Rio Banditos
Avatar
Diddle Fuerte Diablo !

Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4404
  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 11:40am
Hey Scott- just logged on and read your account- This is an AWESOME thread, and thanks to each an every one of those who responded... No bullsh*t here.
 
(maybe I shouldn't give up on Professor Paddle afterall)
 
I gotta say its the holes that scare me more than any other danger out there. As a kid I got recirculated in many holes. My paddling career has largely been about continually confronting this fear as a result. Ironicly, it is the main reason I am not a playboater despite the virtues of cultivating such skills and techniques. (so please, everyone-spare me the lecture about why I should playboat-it ain't gona happen at this point). I've found my own way of dealing with them, mainly by avoidance or choosing a precise line through them.
 
I've been somewhat ruled by my fears this winter- maybe its the high water and cold tempertures, but I think in my case it's something not related to boating at all, irrational as that sounds. Still, I get out and erode away at it a paddle stroke at a time.
 
Anyway, Scott, the main thing I want to say is that I'm glad you are ok and are taking control of your experience. You're a good dude to have out there on the water.
🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
jP
Rio Banditos
Rio Banditos
Avatar
Diddle Fuerte Diablo !

Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4404
  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 11:53am
Originally posted by JayB

-The second is that group dynamics matter. Most of us are pretty good about keeping tabs on others in our party, maintaining spacing that allows for visual contact and some kind of communication, and regrouping when appropriate. Mark, Scott, and I just kind of do this automatically when we're together - and because of that Mark and I were able to get to Scott just a few seconds after he resurfaced.
 
Now, Jay- your message here is Spot -On, but forgive me when I say that I disagree with one thing:
 
"Most of us are pretty good about keeping tabs on others in our party, maintaining spacing that allows for visual contact and some kind of communication, and regrouping when appropriate"
 
This I disagree with. I think most people are actually very poor in this regard. That said, it leaves room for improvement and maybe this thread is a reminder that there is virtue in practicing what you rightfully just preached.
 
Having expressed that negative indictment of the paddling community, it has always been that way. Pick up Charlie Walbridges's book and he will express those same sentiments. On the other hand, I have to say how pleasantly surprised to find out how wrong I was about one of my paddling buddies recently, when I got stuck in a pourover in Gettin Busy @ 3.6' or 3.7' or whatever it was that day- when I rodeoed out and was paddling downstream again- he had gotten out of his boat in anticipation of my swim, and was on standby on the bank. Thanks, Bro! I should have more faith in you by now.
🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
JayB
Big Boofer
Big Boofer


Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 505
  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 12:52pm
Hey JP:

Have to agree with you there on the second point. I was just adding a couple of quick thoughts and didn't phrase that one as precisely as I should have.

What I should have said is something like "Most of us are pretty good about keeping tabs on others in our party...when we're part of a tight crew with solid bonds of friendship and experience that we've woven together on the river, and we've consciously made that a part of the way we operate on the water."

The less the group you're in resembles the above, the less likely it is that everyone will be good about...maintaining spacing that allows for visual contact and some kind of communication, and regrouping when appropriate.

I think we're all guilty of slacking on this one from time to time and we collectively get away with it because it's the sort of thing that doesn't matter, until it does.

I'm not sure what the best way to counter this problem is other than trying to exercise good judgment about what you run and with whom, and just trying to be the kind of partner/paddler that you'd like others to be.
-Jay
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
JayB
Big Boofer
Big Boofer


Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 505
  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 1:21pm
Just a couple more thoughts while I'm at it:

-It's impossible to piece together a picture that accurately accounts for all of the factors that enabled Scott to come out of that awful, awful swim while still conscious.

While I think there just about always valuable lessons we can learn from an incident like this, at the end of the day it's hard to credit anything other than bad luck keeping Scott down for so long, and good luck that he flushed out when he did. I'm sure there were people out there who employed all of the hydraulic-exiting techniques we've been talking about perfectly and drowned, and there are many, many more people who did none of them and lived.

Having said that - I'm convinced that it's possible to improve the odds of surviving by employing all of the techniques outlined here, and while I've tried to imprint them into my mind since I've been paddling - I haven't made it a point to try to practice any of them (other than some involuntary practice at rodeoing out of holes, and getting better about not pre-maturely pulling).

-Scott was conscious when he emerged and within a few seconds he was able to assist in our efforts to get him to shore, despite not being able to breathe. If there's any factor that stand out in my mind above all others - it's that Scott's conditioning (particularly cardio) may have been what allowed him to remain conscious by the time he emerged.

The fact that he was conscious allowed him to get his face out of the water (he resurfaced face down from what I remember), and it made it a many times easier to get him to shore. Had he been unconscious, I'm not sure we'd have been able to get him to shore before he was swept through the rest of the rapid.

-Had neither Mark or I been there, right on the spot when he resurfaced, the odds are high that he may not have been able to make it to shore on his own before being swept through the second half of the rapid.

-Jay
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
<< Prev Page  of 2
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum