Yeah, the water is cold. Seperates the hearty from the weak. I don't see an issue. If this sport chews ya up n spits ya out, C-YA! Everyone else can stick around and be richly rewarded.

Like Grinch said- its a culture of pretenders (mainstream culture), but the Rio don't let pretentions slide. Isn't that all the more rewarding for those who stick to the river's surface? (Or subsurface or airbourn above the surface, ect.)

Now Wa, its true- has colder water and a much more rugged riverscape as well. Steep hikes in and out of canyons. This requires fitness, balance, and sometimes perseverance. WONDERFUL!
- BY CONTRAST: back east you have many runs with developed acess and a higher percentage of less fit people participating. Not making any judgements on those folks- glad they get out too. But, obviously both the streams out here and the canyons they flow through, and the forests that cradle those canyons are more rugged.

Sure you can stay on the wenatchee and have an easy acess, but to run the bulk of what the PNW has to offer you need a LOT more motivation. You gotta want what's in those canyons waiting for you.

I say, there is plenty of variety to serve the paddling population. Choose your own adventure. Stay on the well beaten path and surf Turkey Shoot if thats your thing, or seek out a new creek every week, watch the weather like Cliff Mass n b a geek... Its all up to you.

Cliff Mass rocks !!

Two points related to boat design which I must emphaticly disagree with:

1) There were certainly smaller boats out there than the Hurricane when it arrived on the scene: squirt boats.
2) Creek boat designs WILL continue to evolve. I could elaborate, but to state that is enough. Well, ok-maybe a little:
   The future will bring us specialized creek boats that can creek well enough but are better optimised for HUGE waterfalls than anything we've seen yet.
   Someone will crack the BigWater code: there will be boats better optimised for big water that we haven't seen yet, even if it includes permutations of older design elements tbat have been discarded.
    Creek Racers are already showing up. These will continue to evolve to function well on steeps, yet be better optimized for speed, returning to a 9-10' length range.
    Lastly, it shouldn't be assumed that plastic will always reign supreme as the material of choice as we currently know it. Creekboat designs will find a way to become stronger and lighter. New inflatible kayaks will show up that blow today's hardshells out of the water, and strong skin on frame boats using revolutionary composite materials will get hikers deeper into the back country.
Custom plastic boats may become accessible. I hate being shackled to only what the Almighty Kayak Market deems worthy for me to (buy) paddle. I know what I want. It doesn't exist.

Or, the apocolypse is right around the corner, the economy is in the process of a permanent collapse, and (whitewater) kayaking soon really won't exist. Its safe to say we all hope not. But unless we change the current state of things, as Grinch outlined, that future may be the one we end up w/ by default. I guess I'll be a permanent salt yakker then, and no one will be able to find me, assuming I can adopt a lifestyle like "Kayak Bill".

There you go. Now we're gettin somewhere.
I like the Ike Kinswa Idea and the Kanaskat Palmer one. I also think a East Frk Humptulips/ Matheny combo would be cool.

Been wanting to organize a winter PP gathering for a few winters but haven't made it happen. I think we're onto something. BIGWATER should be careful what he asks for- we gonna all come down and Smartmob his zone with this here internet! After we leave he'll be so stoked on solo paddling! I'll be down there EMPHATICLY YELLING "I'M SO STOKED!!"

But seriously, its a cool idea. Wonder what others think?
Time to launch a new thread...

Regarding IK design, I fear you are correct: not a big enough market. But what I was thinking was if one could make an IK so rad that it could be rolled as easily as a hardshell, what if you could win over a substantial chunk of the hardshell demographic? This from a long term staunch hardsheller who used to scorn the IK (I've made some progress opening my mind)

Hey Bigwater,

     I lived in Olympia for a couple of years two years ago. From talking with the guys at the shop, I heard there just weren't any whitewater boaters in Olympia. Anyway, I was driving down to Hood River for most of my boating then because I knew a few folks down there. I didn't tap into the Seattle scene at all then. I think the Ft Lewis and Tacoma traffic patterns may have been inhibiting me. I was also mostly unaware of the regularly hit runs in the Seattle range.

     So, it would have been fun to have meet you while I was there. I'm in Kirkland now, boating the Sky, Middle Middle, and Green as my daily dose. Olympia is interesting...it's about 30-45 minutes farther from most of the goods than any of the other larger towns. This is because it is positioned at the bottom of the sound smack between the Cascades and the Olympics. Out of Olympia, one has an additional drive over those in other towns.    The plus to this is that Olympia is more central to just about everything for the weekend adventure. The Olympics, Hood River, Seattle stuff, it's all 2 hrs driving or more. While Olympia isn't really close to anything, it's more central to everything.

     I think it's the driving to the rivers that keeps people from learning to boat in Olympia. Oly has no Middle Middle to hit after work in the Spring like Seattle does.

     Anyway, there is an active community, somewhat scattered like cats, in the Seattle region. Maybe more couch surfin' up this way is in order...

JiM