Professor Paddle: Creeker spray skirt?
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not-very-clever
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  Quote not-very-clever Replybullet Topic: Creeker spray skirt?
    Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 1:52pm
Wow skirts for every occasion. playboat, creek boat, sea kayak, utility work, ladies.

I just got a wavesport habitat 74 (thanks PP FSBO) and my other skirts don't fit...
Wavesport recommends a langer skirt, either a armour or basic models. I havent heard much about these skirts. Any insight on these. Internet shopping is difficult.

Wavesport recommends either standard rim size or large size in the langer brand. I like skirts that are small, tight and revealing...so I would probably go for the standard size.



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James
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 2:03pm
NVC, careful with miniskirts...!

Skirts are 3 dimensional in nature. The distance from the front cockpit to the tunnel vs back to back vary along with the shape and size of cockpit opening. Then there is the difference between more material vs a tighter rand. I like a tight rand, but I don't want the material to be so tight that it starts tearing or wearing quickly. If you go with a really tight fit the material is going to wear quicker as it rubs against the rim of your cockpit.

 In general most boats are the same but there are huge differences between Riots and squirtboats too. If your looking for the right fit I would go to aquasports and try a few on, then if you need some special work done talk to Charles. He is tight with the owner of snapdragon and for a small alteration fee I am sure they can make things exactly what you want.


Edited by James - 30 Jan 2012 at 2:03pm
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Ellingferd
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  Quote Ellingferd Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 2:46pm
Snapdragon armortex with implosion bar.
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jP
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 3:21pm
Snapdragon rocks not least because they are homespun local. Like Charles. If you go into his shop and he's got what you need to try on, you oughtta buy it rather than scoot out and order it on line. That would be kinda douchey. I mean, he's put time and effort into makin that product available for you to check out in the Brick N Mortar environment. Many paddlers have no allegience to their local paddler shop, but when somethin comes down to the wire, he's there for you. We've had these discussions before. Just taking this opportunity to throw my 4 pennies out there on this: SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL WHITEWATER BIZ!!!

Creeking: you want an implosion bar in there fo sure.

Neighbors: I got a lovely 'lil denim skirt I like to wear out when I go to Neighbors with the "girls". But, I wouldn't reccomend showing up at the LW take out with that- tends to freak out the surprisingly conservative sensibilities of those Macho creeker boys. At least that's what I've found!

Not that there's anything wrong w/ that.

Edited by jP - 30 Jan 2012 at 3:22pm
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  Quote irenen Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 4:48pm
JP, that post is 'worthless without pics", you know. :)  And I know what a spray skirt looks like, just to be clear. :-P
It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 6:46pm
Okay, busted already. I admit I got no pics to back up my sh*t talk. The best I could do would be to see if the ex gf still has pics of me dressed up as Alice (In Wonderland) one Halloween. She was the Queen of hearts and kept sayin "off with their heads!".

I'm getting older, but I used to be pretty convincing in drag.
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FLUID
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  Quote FLUID Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 7:42pm
 
"Creeking: you want an implosion bar in there fo sure. "
You don't need an implosion bar for creeking..... My buddy on the little white imploded his skirt and the implosion bar stuck inside his cockpit. Scary !! Rare , but things do happen. Thats why its personal preference. I use a flexy skirt that gives more when loaded with water because theres not as much tension. seems to work. have never had it implode ??? 
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  Quote fiddleyak Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 8:31pm
I've imploded twice when I wore a skirt without an implosion bar. I'll never feel the same way on big water after that swim. I had thought like FLUID: "stretchy must mean it won't pop off". Not the case, in my experience.

I have also had an implosion where the bar did get pushed below the cockpit rim. This was with a Karnali, which has a wider than normal cockpit. I've had the exact line with the same skirt in my Burn--no implosion.

My advice for creeking: get the top-of-the-line Snapdragon with implosion bar. Just make sure that the bar cannot be easily pushed below the rim.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 9:00pm
Well there you go. I'm gonna side with the Fiddler on this one.Fluid certainly has a long standing track record of kayaking advanced whitewater on an advanced level (expert), but...

There are always the considerations of personal preference for all these kinds of decisions. Many such preferential decisions are arrived at after such specific instances as the one outlined by Fluid. My comment is issued forth in accordance with what most prevailing opinions are gonna tell ya.

With the implosion bar issue, it is safe to say at this point that it is somewhat of an established standard for creeking. For now, get a skirt with an implosion bar if you are really wanting to gear up for creeking. You can adjust your own preferences as you go, once your own unique flukes start happening to you, scaring you, and directing your choices as you go.

Someone who bashes their face early on will be an easy sell at the kayak shop for a full face helmet, huh? But someday some boater somewhere on this planet now teeming w/ boaters might snag his chin guard on a branch. I gaurantee you that paddler will be forced to re-evaluate the double edged sword of the decisions we make. If his experience is negative and scary enough, he may decide never to boat with a full face again.

I'm just bringing this up because everyone is goin to throw these hard fast opinions at you as if they are written in stone. A throw rope is great. Most of the time. But there's always the entanglement potential. Many of these decisions we make are similar.
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water wacko
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  Quote water wacko Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 6:46am
NVC, I suggest a Snapdragon skirt. An XL cockpit will be fine, but an L sized cockpit might just be what you want. My skirt has an L sized cockpit opening for my Villain S. It was pretty tight when it was new, but it's loosened up a little to "snug". I don't have an implosion bar in mine, but I can't say it's a bad idea. Charles will hook you up for sure.
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman
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irenen
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  Quote irenen Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 8:00am
Originally posted by jP

I'm getting older, but I used to be pretty convincing in drag.


I'm sorry to hijack this thread, but that has to be one of the best quotes ever.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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Fish
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  Quote Fish Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 8:19am
I've owned a wavesport 74 ,and used a large size Snapdragon with implosion bar. This was a great fit, and i highly recommend them.
 
A few thoughts on implosion bars vs non implosion: If your running waterfalls, big water, or class V on a regular basis, YOU WANT AN IMPLOSION BAR!  If on the other hand, your running familiar runs, and not pushing limits, a standard skirt will due. 
 
 Some food for thought... A few years back I headed up to Tatlow with a brand new skirt that snapdragon gave me as they were repairing mine due to some holes and such, all they had was the non implosion type so i took it.  I ran a off vertical 15 footer that was sending everyone in our crew deep for  several seconds of downtime, I resurfaced with a blown skirt and was forced to bail and swim for shore.  Our group had 7 people,  5 people had implosion bars, 2 didnt,  two people blew their skirts... can who guess who they were???  
 
Bottom line,  if you run the sh*t, you want an implosion bar.   I have other stories, but im sure you get the point. 


Edited by Fish - 31 Jan 2012 at 8:22am
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not-very-clever
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  Quote not-very-clever Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 9:16am
Jesus I paid 250 for my creek boat and those snap dragon skirts cost about the same...

Fish- I am not running the sh*t, I just like to look like I do

Jp- wise man speaks

Fluid- thanks for offering an alternate opinion/experience

In regards to Redmond aqua sports... Sweet kayaking shop, not convienently located for me, but Charles is cool and I like supporting that shop.

I have never had a skirt implode, though I remember trying to blame a swim on that early on in my kayaking career...ha, what I think actually happened is my skirt was a loosey goosey one and I could push my way out of the boat via straightening my legs and popping my knees out. booty beer followed

Anyways sounds like the consensus is that snap dragon is the sh*t. I use an immersion research on my play boat and like the tight fit but it doesnt come close to fitting on my creek boat
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  Quote Dale Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 12:15pm
Quick question. Did any of the skirts that imploded have a rubber rand?

I'm not a fan of bungie style skirts.

I think the rubber rand sticks to the cockpit rim better and offers good implosion protection. That and they are dry. Not dryish, but dry.

Snapdragon skirts are rare in the East and very few people have implosion bars... and yes... those fools run waterfalls too. Skirt implosions are fairly rare, if the skirt fits well and are not completely worn out.

I've never used a bungie skirt that didn't leak a bit.

Forgive me for nitpicking about a few drops of water, but, sprayskirts are a pain in the ass to deal with, not to mention expensive. If I'm going to go to the trouble to wear one, I want it to be bone dry.

I'm getting too old and weak to put on my spray skirt. I think I may have to start canoeing again.

Dammit.




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  Quote ellsw121 Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 12:58pm
I have only ever paddled with a rubber rand skirt and will never use anything else. There are a few less well known companies like Skirtworks(basically mountainsurf) that make bomber skirts that I have used for about 4-5 years for one skirt.
 
The rand style personally for me are usually more dry, more impolsion resistant since there is a tigher seal. Take this for what it is worth we all use the skirt that works best for us.
 
Snapdragon is a great local company and I have supported them before, IR traditionlly wore out very fast but as of late seem to be making a much better product.
 
You really cant go wrong with most skirts on the market today.
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  Quote phil Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 2:30pm
I use randed skirts as well and have never imploded. Not running stuff as hard as the folks talking about it above necessarily, but plenty of 15-25 footers, violent hole rides in big water, etc. Never had a problem.

Further to jP's point above about tradeoffs, the downside to the randed skirts is that they don't pop like a shock cord when you want them to. I've been in one serious pin where I *really* wanted to pop my skirt with my knee. I couldn't do it and ultimately came out of the tunnel, because the seal between my dry gear and the skirt failed before the rand came off.

In normal situations where you're pulling the skirt it's usually easy, but it's definitely a tradeoff.
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  Quote FLUID Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 6:30pm
I was just giving my insight and the next skirt I buy might be an implosion bar ??? my non implosion skirt did not blow on tatlow (thank god) but Fish is one of my favorite people to paddle with and is pretty spot on with JP and Fiddleyak who has a better expert track record than I do ??  I think I've been really lucky !! knock on drift wood.
 
 Remember kids if your going to run the sh*t....... get an implosion bar.  I think its funny how we talk about eachother in online nicknames ... hahaaa   !!!!! 
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  Quote Fish Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 6:44pm
Ive never tried the rubber rand skirts, but know of many who swear by some of the newer designs.  Truth be told Ive only ever used the Snapdragon, who does have a rubber rand version now.   Anyone have one of their new ones??
Id like to see how the rubber rand holds up, sounds like they might be a bit drier if nothing else.   Heck, maybe a rubber rand with implosion bar would be the way to go,  that way we would never be able to get out of the boat  HAHA
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  Quote not-very-clever Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 7:04pm
Haha I know thanks fluid... Everyone has really cryptic user names like. Jp and james... And jondufay too, fu*k I would have no idea who that really is. Hidden identities

Anyways I doubt I need an implosion bar for class 2. But I'll probably still get one anyways

Edited by not-very-clever - 31 Jan 2012 at 8:11pm
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 12:07am
Yeah, ellsw121: I had a Mountain Surf way back when Mountain Surf was Mountain Surf and the rand held up well. That thing lasted a long time- I got about 4-5 yrs out of it, too ironicly.

Phil- yeah, the ability to pop one's skirt with a knee is something to consider. Corrin Adison recommends being able to get out of your cockpit without the use of your hand because they may be pinned, or preoccupied hanging onto something, ect.

Fluid- aliases are banned! Didn't you get the memo?!! -- just kiddin, chris :D

A few years back I let Brian Smith talk me out of running "50/50" because I didn't have an implosion bar. That's ok, I was only 40/60 about wanting to run it. 60% sure I wanted to put in below the "Scissors".
Funny thing- Brad X didn't have one either. Didn't stop him from running it. Without incident.

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  Quote WA-Boater Replybullet Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 10:41am
I've been using one of the Snap Dragon rubber rand style skirts for a bit now. It is drier and very secure, even without an implosion bar. The trade off - it is harder to get on then the standard style but still very managealbe for most paddlers.
They also have one that I really like. It has the standard rubber shock cord with a 2" wide sticky rubber around the underside of the skirt where it contacts the cockbit rim. It is very dry & secure. Mine doesn't have an implosion bar. The sticky rubber seems to hold it on good enough without one. I've had someone put there foot on the skirt where the implosion bar typically is and push it down 8" or so without the skirt blowing.
Snap Dragon is in Redmond. The guys there are top notch and will take care of any warranty/repair problems.
 
Darren

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