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jP
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  Quote jP Replybullet Topic: Big Clean Green, Sunday!!
    Posted: 24 Feb 2012 at 9:03pm
Ok I just made up my mind: I am DEFINITELY running the Green tomorrow. C'mon, James!! Come out kayaking for once. Its so close by and flows will be deluxe!

Who else is in and what time should we meet at Pair'o Dice?
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 24 Feb 2012 at 9:12pm
Last I checked it was 5,900 and dropping. Who knows how this rain will effect it. Its raining a decent amount in Auburn right now, but that doesn't necessarily reflect what's dumping into HH. So who knows? Higher or lower or the same I know it'll be good.

Those who would be on the fence, I could underdtand if it remains above 5,000. But then you may want to consider sunday. 4,000 and lower is beginning to resemble normal flows a lot more.

I'll run it all weekend if it stays above 3,000. I'd be happy to put down some reliable lines for PPeeps who want to step up to the plate yet still have someone to follow. This is a good opportunity for people who want to stretch out into bigger water and expand their range.

It's very wide open. The last two days I barely got my head wet. There are definitely some big holes to avoid, but as Fish says you have a "country mile" to skirt around them. True, you sorta got to run the gaunlet at The Nozzle, but nothing a little precise boat handling and some forward momentum can't take care of.

No real wood hazards except the right side of Stano Rock in Let's Make A Deal. Easier to stay left anyway.

Silky Smooth like a Triple Grande Americano with creme on top   

Just quality big water boat'n!

Edited by jP - 24 Feb 2012 at 9:16pm
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  Quote BIGWATER Replybullet Posted: 24 Feb 2012 at 9:34pm
im in
 
how about 11 ?
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 24 Feb 2012 at 9:57pm
Saturday:
11am @ Paradise!!!
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 24 Feb 2012 at 11:53pm
5800 @ midnight
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 25 Feb 2012 at 4:12pm
just read this JP , sorry bud... was super busy this weekend getting some stuff put together for the baby on the way. I can get out tomorrow afternoon, say 11:00 or so?
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 25 Feb 2012 at 6:19pm
Dude! C'mon out!!
Sunday: 11am @ Paradise!!!

Thursday: 7,500 > 7,200
Friday: 6,500 > 6,000
Saturday: 5,000 > 4,500
Sunday: ?



Edited by jP - 25 Feb 2012 at 6:28pm
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  Quote BIGWATER Replybullet Posted: 25 Feb 2012 at 8:00pm
man i had a blast today .. thx for the run guys ..... i love the Green with water in it !!!
 
im not sure what the local Tilton crew is doing on Sun yet ... but if the Tilton  is under 2k and the green is over 3k  i think i may head to the Green again
 
ill have to make the call in the morning
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 25 Feb 2012 at 8:10pm
Sounds good. I might be a tad late maybe round 11:15 but I will call you earlier in the morning too be sure.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 25 Feb 2012 at 8:14pm
Sounds great! Tell you what- I'll be there at 11 chilling. In no hurry. If 11:15 or 11:30 works better I can hang out till then no prob. If people would rather push it back to noon (might give the Olympia crew more driving time if they cruise up) just let me know before 10:00. I may do some early trail maint. And once I drop into the Paradise Parking zone I no longer get cel coverage.

Edited by jP - 25 Feb 2012 at 8:15pm
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  Quote BIGWATER Replybullet Posted: 26 Feb 2012 at 7:36am

im not gona make it up to the Green today .... the Tilton crew twisted my arm so ill be heading south for a mello afternoon Tilton run

have fun on the Green !   hopefully i can catch it with water once more this season

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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 26 Feb 2012 at 7:51am
Ok, great boat'n w/ ya yesterday, chris! Glad you made it up this way- we had BIGWATER ON THE BIGWATER

So the only thing now is, who wants to rally today? Looks like I'm going to need to hear from.anyone and everyone interested. I need to get some feedback from anyone who wants to join me. Sooner than later so I know what's up.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 26 Feb 2012 at 7:58am
Because I was hoping to assemble a Class IV+ strike force. My bicycle is in the shop so solo option is out. I can connect with some rafts it sounds like. Franz has a crew meeting at Headworks at 9am but they gotta rig/run shuttle. I could always shoe horn onto their trip, and run all the way to Flamin G. I guess I'm hoping to hear from people by 9am now.

Its 4100 or so right now, and should be slightly below 4,000 by noon.

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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 26 Feb 2012 at 8:03am
Headz up: BIG FAT LOG (Large Dia.) Broached on Stano Rock in center of "Let's Make A Deal". W/ the water dropping it should be manageable on the Left, maybe even duckable in rafts (high enough off water). But it will poke into your psychological space when you see it. Kayaks should have no problem getting/ staying left, there's even a sneak route far against the left wall that was clean yesterday that made avoiding it easy. Hopefully it didn't shift, a possibility. Stay LEFT until you assess. Sticks out into both channels.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 26 Feb 2012 at 10:02am
Final update: Nutty P and an Old School Kung Fu Master are meeting me and another solid PPeeps at Noon. Paradise.

I'm gonna swing up to headworks n say hi to my inflatable friends then be at Paradise early w/ the bowsaw doin trail maint.

Come rally of you want some sweet Class IV/IV+ Push!
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 26 Feb 2012 at 8:28pm
Well today wrapped up one of the best 4 day blocks of boating I had in a long time, all in the Exquisite Upper Green Gorge with great flows all weekend!

Stoked to see everyone who sampled the goods all weekend at various flows- on the trips I was on as well as other parties.

Thurs: 7,500
Fri: 6,500
Sat: 5,000
Sun: 4,000

Except for today those were all first time flows for me. Running it at each water level each consequetive day gave me a very thorough understanding of how the run changes in difficulty and where the trouble spots are. I must confirm what some of the other boaters who are familiar w/ these higher flows have said:

5,000-6,500 is roughly the "Bad Hair" zone. More difficult than 7,500 at least. For very specific reasons. Today at 4,000 and dropping it resembled "normal water levels", but it was still quite big and class IV+ pretty much the whole way. The Nozzle wanted fresh meat today. It didn't get any from our group though!


I'm stoked that so many PPeeps rallied throughout the weekend. It was just way too much quality water for just a few boats to indulge in! A few of us even took the Echanting "Secret Paradise Passage"!!!
You got to find that line for yourself though or follow someone. It's only in at flows above 3800.

Maybe 3,500 and above is too much water for some boaters to feel at home, but, then again maybe some of those PPeeps have Monday off. Last I saw it was 2800 dropping fast. Tomorrow will still be a nice casual medium flow, I bet. If I didn't have to work I'd go back again.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 26 Feb 2012 at 8:35pm
I'm finishing the weekend with a much deeper understanding of why the Green is considered such a classic. It ain't because of those 900-1400 flows.

2,000+. You can't go wrong. 2,000-8,000 captures the true gestalt of that gorge. I feel it in the water beneath my boat. All those rocks in there at the lower flows are just un necessary clutter.

That said, there were a few incidents this weekend. Not on any of my trips, but some yardsales did occur in the Nozzle/ Let's Make A Deal vicinity!
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  Quote mokelumnekid Replybullet Posted: 26 Feb 2012 at 8:59pm
Sure be nice to get a full wood report all the way to FG after this last big flush, prob won't have another of that volume this year?
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 26 Feb 2012 at 9:14pm
You may be right. Probably the last big flush till late fall. Ask Franz. He Cat boated all the way to Flamin G. I bet it's all cleaned up, though. 8,000 is the kind of flow that sends stuff downstream all the way. And the slow reduction over 5 days only helps this. If it spiked high and dropped out quicker like natural streams wood could potentially get hung up before making it all the way out to the valley, but I'd bet it'll be squeaky clean.

I gotta say I regret not running the Lower all weekend. Not once. Next time its high I'd like to do Headworks to the Yo Yo take out.

Edited by jP - 26 Feb 2012 at 9:16pm
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 26 Feb 2012 at 9:47pm
I have to completely disagree with you about flows on the Green. It is a spectacar run at lower flows around 1,000 - 2,000 cfs. It is pretty and fun and much less dangerous at lower flows. I will be getting on it around Thursday if the flows hold out and see if any wood is in there at lower flows.

You know, not everyone kayaks for the rush, some of us senior and weathered kayakers just like the exercise, scenery, and water.    

It is unfortunate when people make unsaviory comments about low water flows like that John. It may discurage others from enjoying the low flows or temp those not prepared for what can happen in there if you have problems at higher flows.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 27 Feb 2012 at 5:38am
Originally posted by dave



You know, not everyone kayaks for the rush, some of us senior and weathered kayakers just like the exercise, scenery, and water.    


Well, you know dave, I'm glad you brought this up because that statement actually perfectly describes where I'm at. I don't really kayak for the rush. I am senior and weathered (though yes I've been paddling whitewater for three decades). I'm really mostly paddling for the exercise, scenery, and water. I don't need an adventure. I just want to kayak.

Yeah, 3,000 is starting to be burly in there, requiring STRONG ASSERTIVE PADDLING. But 2,000-3,000 really is a very sweet zone that flows rather harmoniously. 2,000-3,000 in the upper gorge is actually very accessible to any paddler with a few avid seasons under their belt, a solid roll, and someone supportive to show them lines, give them beta, and generally look out for them. It is very doable.

To each their own, it's true. But Dave, what you forget, my friend, is that for every person who wants to cap out early in their paddling career and never progress beyond low water, rocky class III, there are at least ten paddlers who want to move past that stage to loftier ambitions. Many of these aspiring paddlers get into these transient class IV-ish limbo zones where they maybe run Boulder Drop or whatever, but don't yet have the confidence to venture into the realm of big pushy water full time. Some aspire to one day run class V, some just want to be more solid on the IV. But sometimes Washington class IV has some burly aspects to it. Whitewater is unpredictable by nature, so comfort on pushy water is the best way to innoculate one's self against this inherent fact.

SO. Where do they find their intermediary steps? How do these boaters gain a truly solid foothold on the Class IV riverscape so they can confidently import their skills to Washington's varied Class IV runs? Dave, people post on Professor Paddle all the time with questions like "what should I do where should I go if I want to 'step it up'". Well, 2,000-3,000 in the Upper Green Gorge is a great place to start. Its pretty forgiving if you have solid fundementals. Nick and I took a (very solid) first year boater down the Upper Gorge at 3,600 or whatever it was last fall. He did fine, and brought his best "A game" but he also had really good trip leaders. It makes a huge difference.

The thing is, if you never ever paddle any rivers with water in them, of course you're never going to feel comfortable on rivers with water in them besides the Wenatchee. But you can inner tube the Wenatchee. But, take a step back and look at this objectively for a moment. Paddling on nothing but lubricated rocks every weekend can become sort of a hydro-phobic mindset. Does that not seem the slightest bit ironic when discussing a sport that takes place on moving water?

Dave, you took offense, and maybe I did bait you a little. Its true I do that sometimes. But my intent is not to mislead anyone into oblivion, nor is it to "lord my skill and experience" above others to make them feel inferior. While I may occasionally be percieved as doing that online, anyone who's spent quality time on the river w/ me knows I won't lead them into oblivion with my beta or my actions, and that I'm generally supportive. More supportive than most paddlers of any stripe, in fact.

A big part of what I'm doing with these posts in the wake of these water levels is sharing my highly qualified observations because there is a doorway to a fabulous world that many paddlers never step into. That's fine if you are content to remain in the world of the Muggles. But for those who want to become more intimate w/ The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, to boot up a random metaphor, well, these posts of mine are meant as an invitation into this magical world. The Green at 4,000 can be a great range for intermediate paddlers who want to solidify their class IV skills. Only one person took me up on it all weekend, but that paddler absolutely shined. In this case the flow was a perfect match for what that paddler was looking for as far as being personally challenged, yet legitimately qualified to be there. It's called calculated risk. Most paddlers like to play in that fuzzy grey zone, if they wish to progress. That zone is different for everyone, and can shift.

There is a fantastic world awaiting them on the other side. One that can be explored with control, confidence, calculated prudence, and joy. It's like a muscle. But until you work those muscles you don't know where those limits are. Rest assured, Dave- there are legions of hungry aspiring boaters silently lurking on these forums who are looking for a road map for the next steps along their path of progression. They are all at various stages and progress at different rates. Some find it on their own, others are looking for clues.

This thread is such a clue. This post is a huge clue for the right person(s). Many will gloss over it, and that's fine. I'm not here to pander to hyperactive short attention spans. If this post resonates with only one paddler, it was worth the time, thought, and consideration I spent writing it. It contains a wealth of nuance. Just like the river.
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 27 Feb 2012 at 10:55am
All this flowpolitics is silly unless your getting out a ton. For some folks just breaking away for a quick trip is so needed that an extra 2000 cfs or a bone low run can be equally enjoyable. I used to be soaked in the crowd that liked to etch away higher flow  or more technical descents, and of course we all started by enjoying what we could without yard sale'in all day long...

Bottom line though is no one should forget that regardless of your preference, just getting out and enjoying this sport is a luxury that life does not always afford. As the factors that support paddling decrease in life, one can find more and more pleasure in what was once a seamingly overlooked experience. Last I checked everyone around here is getting older not younger, and at some point everyone will become more and more limited to what you can or can not do, so here is a toast to enjoying what you are doing to the highest possible level, and not taking it for granted while you are still there!

I agree Dave, the Green is the best at the levels you mentioned...

I agree JP the Green is the best at the levels you mentioned...
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 27 Feb 2012 at 7:10pm
Ok, ok-- I give up. You guys (Dave, James, and Slick) missed the whole point of everything I said. Maybe once, just once, someone else will support my perspective. But your counter points only serve to polarize the discussion and manipulate it away from my intended point (and my intended audience as well). You just always have to drag it right back to where it already is permanently parked. There's no room for any nuance.

I give up.
So go on and keep stating the obvious.



Edited by jP - 27 Feb 2012 at 7:29pm
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 27 Feb 2012 at 8:21pm
And I ain't playin no flow politics. That's silly. Yall yanked this whole thread off topic into Professor Poopy Place, not me.

James, sorry you felt the need to strap on the Moderator voice, but
This thread is titled "Big Clean Geen". That's what its about. Dave and Slick, if you wanna wax passionately about the enchanted wonders of the Green at 900, the most common flow there is year round, why don't you go start that thread instrad of blasting my stoke with an online fire extinguisher?

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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 27 Feb 2012 at 8:22pm
Uh oh. A two pager now. And most of these posts don't even belong here.

But I ain't gonna cheat by hittin delete, or moving posts. There may be hope for this thread yet...

Edited by jP - 27 Feb 2012 at 8:25pm
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