Professor Paddle: robe vs little white vanlinelogistics.com Seattle Washington (WA) Warehousing & Order Fulfillment vanlinelogistics.com Seattle Washington (WA) Warehousing & Order Fulfillment vanlinelogistics.com Seattle Washington (WA) Commercial Relocation vanlinelogistics.com Warehousing & Order Fulfillment
Professor Paddle Professor Paddle
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
Home Calendar Forum FSBO Gallery PPages Reviews Rivers Links
  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch
Whitewater Forum
 Professor Paddle : General : Whitewater Forum
Message Icon Topic: robe vs little white Post Reply Post New Topic
Author Message
kevinh
McNasty
McNasty


Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 304
  Quote kevinh Replybullet Topic: robe vs little white
    Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 6:59pm
hey guys. doing some homework here, hoping to pick the collective brain.

how does medium flow robe compare to medium flow little white?

robe at 5.5 on sat felt pretty good and in control and I'm wondering how that compares to the little white at a comparable flow. Never been down there and super curious.

cheers
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
Ellingferd
McNasty
McNasty
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 418
  Quote Ellingferd Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2013 at 6:04am
The little white is a different style of river. Much less pool drop (particularly in Getting Busy) and a smaller margin for error. I wouldn't say it is way harder than robe, but if you are paddling a majority of the drops, it is a bit harder, especially your first time. What is the level on the LW?
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
McCain
Paddler
Paddler
Avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 58
  Quote McCain Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2013 at 9:57am
This is coming from a rafters perspective so probably not the best information but I would say that robe is more big water and big holes while the little white is more technical and creeky. I could be off but the little white was 3.2 earlier this week so I reckon it would be about the same (maybe an inch or two higher) as I guess they have not received too much rain in the white salmon area.
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
WhiteWaterWheat
Paddler
Paddler
Avatar

Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 83
  Quote WhiteWaterWheat Replybullet Posted: 31 Jan 2013 at 5:42pm
Hi Kevin. I paddled the Little White for the first time this summer and I'd say it felt harder than Robe at med flows. Or there just seemed to be greater consequences for missed lines and swims. Definitely a different character with more waterfalls and a super busy/continuous section in the beginning.
You only get the chance to run a drop blind once.
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
jP
Rio Banditos
Rio Banditos
Avatar
Diddle Fuerte Diablo !

Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4404
  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 03 Feb 2013 at 12:54pm
Apples n Oranges. I agree w/ Ellie though (LW is much steeper, so the technical stuff comes at you quicker, and the pockets and caves below some drops are more consequential.)

I feel as though the surgey nature of Robe is more tricky in other ways, and being silty, its harder to read. But LW is probably a little more difficult.

They have two completely different characters, so they compliment each other really well.
🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
chipmaney
Big Boofer
Big Boofer
Avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 591
  Quote chipmaney Replybullet Posted: 03 Feb 2013 at 3:46pm
what are some good preparatory rivers for l-dub?
sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
jblum
Big Boofer
Big Boofer
Avatar
Don Blumin Looper

Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 527
  Quote jblum Replybullet Posted: 03 Feb 2013 at 5:30pm
LW is harder than Robe hands down. The consequences are worse, the rapids are longer and more technical There are more moves in Gettin Busy than there are in all of Robe Canyon. The water isn't "as big", but the moves certainly are in terms of importance and quantity.

A few good prep runs to build up to the LW include (in my order of perceived difficulty if you ran everything that was reasonable, least to most, this will probably stir up some discussion...):

East Fork Lewis
Canyon Creek (Lewis)
Canyon Creek (Stilly)
Cooper River
Farmlands of White Salmon
Silver Creek (Sky)
Panther Creek (Wind)
Ohanepacosh
Carbon River
Upper Trout Creek
Top Tye including the stuff above Log Choke
Green Truss of White Salmon running everything including BB and BZ
Upper Upper Cispus running everything including Behemouth
Clear Fork of Cowlitz (maybe harder than LW)
Ernies Canyon (although this may be as difficult, maybe harder than LW)

Basically, once you can confidently run everything on the Carbon or harder, you probably have the skill to run the LW at an easy flow (2.9-3.2) following someone who really knows the run well. One of the things that makes the LW very challenging is that the first rapid (Gettin Busy) is almost a mile of moves that will leave most first timers' with their heads spinning. Its also physically demanding... and thats just the first mile (1 of 4).

Edited by jblum - 03 Feb 2013 at 5:32pm
JHB
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
tiziak
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1226
  Quote tiziak Replybullet Posted: 03 Feb 2013 at 5:53pm
Chipper-
 
I would say once you are super comfortable on middle Icicle: game on for LW.
 
My 2 cents.
If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.

Daniel Patrinellis
360.434.4616
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
water wacko
Master Poster
Master Poster
Avatar
Team Jackson

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2137
  Quote water wacko Replybullet Posted: 03 Feb 2013 at 8:17pm
Lots of good points here. Top Tye laps, Foss pretty high, feelin good on the Truss. Upper Trout is a fun one too. Go with someone you trust, it'll make following easier.
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
ChristianKnight
WW Industry
WW Industry


Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 279
  Quote ChristianKnight Replybullet Posted: 03 Feb 2013 at 10:35pm
Last Sunday on Ernie's, I asked Mike Nash how he felt on such a daunting run.
"Fine," he quipped. "I've been practicing skills all winter on the Sky. Hitting eddies. Doing ferries. Trying out all the hard lines."
He was able to list the hard creeks he'd run on one hand.
The lesson, here, I think is that you can prepare for the Little White while working out on the Sky better than you can by getting sucked to the bottom of Class V rapids on Class V runs. This was the perspective of Louis Geltman in that essay he wrote a few months ago. And it is certainly a more responsible and skill-building route to Class V than the route I took.
A few winters ago, all my paddling took place on the Sky, mostly at low water. I was racing it weekly. On some sections, I'd do eddy-attainments.
Then, I ventured down to the Little White at 3.8 in the winter. I hadn't run it since I lived in Hood River two years earlier. I was scared. After two runs on it, however, I felt the creek had challenged me, but it certainly hadn't overwhelmed me. I credit those race runs on the Sky. When your objective is to go fast, your line has to be more precise. And when your muscles are lactic and your lungs are heaving, holding your line becomes more difficult.
My advice: If you really, really want to prepare for the Little White, drive up to Index. Put in on the Sky, either at Cable Drop or on the North Fork. Paddle downstream as fast as you can. Don't stop before you get to Boulder Drop. When your line through Boulder Drop is clean (no accidental eddies, no rubbing up on boulders, etc.), you are probably okay.
Catch your eddies,
Christian
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
kevinh
McNasty
McNasty


Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 304
  Quote kevinh Replybullet Posted: 03 Feb 2013 at 11:46pm
all good thoughts. thanks
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
horton
Rock Bumper
Rock Bumper


Joined: 04 May 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 29
  Quote horton Replybullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 1:02am
A few thoughts from an average, scared-y cat boater who is an "annual-regular" boater on the LW, and usually after strong off-the-couch preparation:

My first time down the LW wasn't that scary. Then I went back and everything got way scarier. Most of the rapids boat really easy if you TAKE YOUR TIME. That said, screwing them up has serious consequences, in my opinion.
-Gettin' Busy is the scariest thing blind. There is nothing like it on Robe. Make sure to break it into at least four parts so that you can catch your breath on it. The closest thing I know of to it is Panther Creek (Wind Drainage) which cuts through the same geological strata, but is a little smaller and easier; the class IV+ version, if you will
-If you are feeling it in GB, a look at boulder sluice might be in order. It is super easy, and nailing the line there is a good start to the day, plus there is some boogie below that is easy, but if you don't know where it goes and you blow by the eddy at BS, it can be spooky.
-go slow coming into Island. There is a hard (one of the hardest regular moves on the river) left to right maneuver at the entrance, or a sneaky move around right. That entrance is junky and it isn't all that hard to blow by the scout/portage eddy just above Island, and that is NOT a rapid you want to run sight unseen.
-Scout S-Turn. People get routed off that left line, and I think it is pretty hard, especially at flows lower than ~3.2, and it goes in front of a deadly cave. Instead of scouting, You can boof far left and walk it your first time, if you want. Less stress.
- If you go in at flows above ~3.2 you can sneak the next drop, Bowey's Hotel, on the right. It's not that bad of a rapid, but if you are feeling conservative the sneak is easy.
-When you get routed off Wishbone blind (which you probably will) TUCK UP. I got incomplete beta, went off too far left with an air brace, and ripped my shoulder out of socket the first time I ran it. Whatever happens, tuck tight.
- Horseshoe isn't all that bad, but I feel like it gets harder as it gets lower (and obviously higher) because the right side dries out and you get pushed towards the middle. After that is Stovepipe (fun and easy on the right- I even fell in once while scouting and swam that line), and then you are home free.

I guess what I am saying is that if you go slow, you can really take the bite out of the run at the right flow ( I think around 3.3 is optimal. Covers the FU rocks, makes some rapids less steep, doesn't make any of the holes that much worse) and make it relatively easy. It's not hard to learn the lines, and then you can blaze it like most folks do. Just get in with a good crew. I would say that if Robe at 5.5' is a cruise run for you, you should be fine on the LW. Caveat: I have only run Robe once at about 5.2 or 5.3.
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
Jed Hawkes
Rio Banditos
Rio Banditos
Avatar

Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 814
  Quote Jed Hawkes Replybullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 12:22pm
Would you say Jefferson or the Little White is harder? people tell me Jefferson is like "gettin' busy" from top to bottom. Accurate?
The line will become apparent
978-273-7723
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
tiziak
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1226
  Quote tiziak Replybullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 2:50pm

I would say that comparison is very accurate.

 

In some ways, I would even venture that Jefferson at a medium flow is more difficult that Gettin Busy in the 3.2 range. There are more eddies than you know what to do with on LDuB, where there are far fewer in Jefferson.

 

Personal opinion: I think Jefferson is more difficult.

If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.

Daniel Patrinellis
360.434.4616
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
wwaddict
Paddler
Paddler
Avatar

Joined: 07 Jun 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 52
  Quote wwaddict Replybullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 3:03pm
I think you should have used a bigger font size



-joe   
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
tiziak
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1226
  Quote tiziak Replybullet Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 3:10pm
My track suit got in the way!!!
If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.

Daniel Patrinellis
360.434.4616
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
chipmaney
Big Boofer
Big Boofer
Avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 591
  Quote chipmaney Replybullet Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 3:24pm
I agree with Christian. I feel like I have the skill, but I need a whole season of boating consistently to develop the fitness required to run the LW. A lot of it is dependent on the individual. If you boat 200 days a year for the last 15 years, well, you probably don't need either skill or fitness. If you're like me, 5 years of experience and about 50 days a year, it requires a full-on strategic plan to prepare to run LW.
sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
TastyWaves
Super Looper
Super Looper
Avatar

Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 172
  Quote TastyWaves Replybullet Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 10:48pm
I got my first Little White run in about a month ago, At that point I had run Robe probably 15 times, from low levels to no higher than 5.8.

Little White for me was GAME ON, it was pushy and I had to work as hard as I could in each rapid. I was upside down a lot.

The level was 3.3, and I think I would rather have better honed skills before running it again. It was awesome, but certainly intimidating. And I was with a solid crew giving good beta. I paddled on saturday and bowed out the next day.

My brother's advice for runs like this is worth considering, if you aren't hitting your lines 100% of the time on the step-down run, reconsider paddling the step-up run. For instance, on Robe sometimes I still screw things up. (Tiziak, let's see that video of Ms. Robinson from Sunday!!) According to this advice, until I can hit each line 100% on Robe, it might not be time for the step up to Little White.

Obviously its different for each person. But its worth remembering that Little White isn't going anywhere. In the grand scheme of things it makes no difference whether you paddle it this week or in 2016..


Wise men say forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza.
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
water wacko
Master Poster
Master Poster
Avatar
Team Jackson

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2137
  Quote water wacko Replybullet Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 5:08am
I would say Jefferson is technically a bit more challenging than LW. There are certainly nasty places on both runs. Sweet boofs, too.
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
Ellingferd
McNasty
McNasty
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 418
  Quote Ellingferd Replybullet Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 7:35am
Ask yourself this question: could you take someone down robe if they had never been down before? Essentially this gets at your comfort with the run in the face of being the one who has to hit all the lines and keep your sh*t together. If you are running robe with a roll every other rapid, you aren't ready for the LW. If you are running robe with no rolls, out front leading, etc. then you should consider the LW. The next time you run robe, eddy out below last sunshine, then run from the bottom of last sunshine all the way to the top of faceplant without eddying out or pausing in any way. If you aren't into it, getting busy will present a challenge, and you have a long ways to go after getting busy.
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
peteg
Rock Bumper
Rock Bumper


Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 33
  Quote peteg Replybullet Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 9:00am
I know you said medium flows but also consider that the LW is way less intimidating at low flows (below 2.8'). Yea, some will say that's too low but although it is super technical in spots, the run is easier to break down into sections and get a breather. And although there are still places to screw up, I feel like the consequence factor goes way down. Very different kind of run at those flows than Robe though.
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
SOPBOATER
McNasty
McNasty
Avatar

Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 296
  Quote SOPBOATER Replybullet Posted: 09 Feb 2013 at 11:46am
Look for 3 to 3.2 for a first run. Push is lower and bad rocks covered. Robe is different. It is cleaner than trout, and trout is no slouch for difficulty or quality. Go with a good crew that knows her Biblically. Scout island for sure, it is always the one i am glad to be through. The sluice is my fav, it looks worse than it is. And don't feel obligatedfor spirit. Its the only one i haven't run and I'm not bummed. I mean there its always next time.
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
jP
Rio Banditos
Rio Banditos
Avatar
Diddle Fuerte Diablo !

Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4404
  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 16 Feb 2013 at 1:21pm
Lots of good advice from lots of good paddlers.
I'd echo that 3-3.2' is a good target range for the first few runs. You could expand that to 3.4' and not notice too much extra push, but GettinBusy will come at you a little faster. I think running it down to 2.8' is ok if you don't mind boat abuse, but below 2.8' you risk exposing yourself to broken boats or even some gnarly pin potential. That basalt is rough n sharp. Better to have the skills to kayak on moving water. That's really where its at.

Yeah, Gettin Busy is more difficult than anything on Robe ('cept maybe Landslide), but I have a much harder time hitting my lines "100% of the time" on Robe than I do on LW, and I've run Robe a lot more. on the Ldub, seems like you just follow the water and gravity takes care of the rest (just mind you p's n q's near those caves). That said, I'm not too proud to take a few sneak lines on LW, and Island Drop isn't something I ever regret sneaking or walkin, though I've run its gut a few times when I'm feelin good.

Christian's perscription is particularly good, and widely ignored (unfortunately). Ellingferd's statements regarding the difference between leading and following are noteworthy.

And yeah, I think Jefferson is a touch harder and yet not anywhere near as sweet: the wood potential lurking in Jeffery spooks me a bit. Its either too boney ass low or too rippin scary high, and the "sweet medium" window seems tiny and fickle, too hard to catch when ya gotta drive so far. Gotta love the dependability of the Mt. Adams drainages!!!
🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋
IP IP Logged Send Private Message Send Private Message
JD_G
Splat Wheeler
Splat Wheeler


Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 138
  Quote JD_G Replybullet Posted: 16 Feb 2013 at 6:00pm
Great comments JP, about hitting the lines on LW, as compared to Robe.  Both runs really reward familiarity.  First LW run of the year, I always feel behind, and like I'm working harder than I should be.  After getting a few laps in, things seem to gel, and you're able to flow along nicely. 
 
For first timers, it's all about having the right pace through Gettin Busy.  Breaking it down into 4 sections helps alot. Go with a crew that's good with that program, or you may find yourself travelling a ways between stops, which tends to put folks into the red zone a bit, if they're not ready for it.  Once you're dialed, it's a blast to run Gettin Busy without stopping, and right into flying off Boulder Sluice!
As far as Jefferson, I think it's easier (less push then LW), and contrary to JP, believe it's a sweet run, well worth the effort.  Yes, it can be fickle to catch....but it's a great ride when you do.
 
 
IP IP Logged Send Private Message
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum