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Fenix747
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  Quote Fenix747 Replybullet Posted: 13 Jul 2013 at 10:56am
Can't pass up an opportunity to plug in a video.
The last minute of this show cases lunch hole at its finest, Tpot tells the tale.

https://vimeo.com/64327187

Lunchy is munchy but that left line is really fun.

Edited by Fenix747 - 13 Jul 2013 at 10:57am
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Blair
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  Quote Blair Replybullet Posted: 14 Jul 2013 at 5:46pm
This video doesn't have any lunch hole beat down in it. I watched it thinking it would show a bigass kickin...nope.

Edited by Blair - 14 Jul 2013 at 5:52pm
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osmelendez
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  Quote osmelendez Replybullet Posted: 14 Jul 2013 at 7:33pm
I thought the same thing. here, try this one. carnage starts about 13 minutes into the video. you will see a proper hole ride, very scary one, followed by a class V swim.
https://vimeo.com/62334831
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  Quote osmelendez Replybullet Posted: 14 Jul 2013 at 7:38pm
By the way Sam Graffton, I'm surprised you only got 4th place. That was a killer run down Sunset.
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  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 15 Jul 2013 at 11:59am
Just for the hell of it I'll trot out my hole-trashing compilation vid from the Beaver River in NY:

http://vimeo.com/4897157

I agree with the gist of the comments on this thread:

-Getting stuck in retentive holes is something that is going to happen every now and then.

-A combination of mental preparation and practice in smaller, relatively benign holes can be a good way to develop the mind/body skills that you'll need to have ready when the time comes to fight your way out of more retentive holes.

-The "upside down air brace" can be an effective way to use the outflow to pull you out of the retention zone. I've found that even just pausing for 1-2 seconds (hanging upside down) before setting up for a roll allows me to catch enough outflow to roll up out of the retention zone.

-It's worth taking holes seriously. Flush drownings happen.Developing a paralyzing fear holes isn't a good approach, but developing a healthy respect for them is. Pay attention to the character of the holes that you encounter when you are paddling by them and do what you can to develop the capacity to evaluate the kind of hazard they present. Look for the outflows, imagine working your way out of them if you were stuck in them, make it a habit to continuously evaluate the circumstances downstream of every horizon line so that you'll have the situational awareness that you need to choose the right game plan if you find yourself getting munched.




-Jay
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 15 Jul 2013 at 9:49pm
Well said, Jay.

Paddling past stuff and seeing the hole is good. Scouting holes from the bank and seeing their shape, and their "kick" (the direction the foam pile tends to toss floating objects such as us) is good. Paddling through, surfing in unintentionally or deliberately...

It all adds up. It starts, in my opinion, with seeing the river with keen eyes, then feeling it all once you understand the dynamics at play. Not saying this to anyone in particular so much as sharing these insights for the benefit of novice paddlers.
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water wacko
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  Quote water wacko Replybullet Posted: 16 Jul 2013 at 10:37am
JP, the pourover I was referring to in Lunch Hole is on the river right side and between 3-4000 gets low head-ish. A friend told me a story once, he was paddling ahead of the group, boofed this hole around 3500, was immediately sucked back in, trashed until he swam, then continued to get sucked back in over and over out of his boat. Balled up, tried swimming to the side of the hole... this guy's been on the river most of his life and couldn't get out. Finally, realizing he might drown in this hole, the though of it making him go limp, he flushed.. spitting up water and gasping. Boat, paddle, everything washed up on the river right beach at the bottom and he drained his stuff out and was getting back in his boat when the rest of the group came down. I've paddled by that hole several times since and it doesn't look friendly.

And since I'm talking about danger in Lunch Hole... just downstream of Lunch Hole (proper) is a wicked rock sieve that is in play if you're over there on the river left. Downstream about 30 feet on the left bank is a very active rock syphon that empty boats have gone through. I haven't heard of anyone swimming it yet, but low water brings out such features. Take a look next time you're through there. It's interesting to watch the current not stop or 'pillow up' as it goes into those rocks. The lower it gets the more the rocks are out of the water making the syphon more visible. The Sky has other low-water danger spots like that if you're looking. Boat safe, the river is a wild place.
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman
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septimus prime
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  Quote septimus prime Replybullet Posted: 16 Jul 2013 at 11:12am
Same thing happened to me at House Rapid on Middle Icicle. When I had resigned myself to drowning and quit fighting, I flushed.

Balling up doesnt work when the hole is too shallow.
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  Quote Travisimo Replybullet Posted: 16 Jul 2013 at 11:48am
I went into that sieve you speak of many years ago after a cluster f*** of a rescue.

Was my first time in a playboat, I body pinned and couldn't reach the surface.

Keep swimmers away from that place, it was horrifying and I still remember like it was yesterday. Started convulsing and seeing stars... I couldn't even swim when I finally reached the surface.

I guess the only moral of my story is, never give up. Fight against pins and try to find moving water. In my case when I finally tried swimming/fighting down I flushed. Hard to transition from crawling toward the light to going down though.

Edited by Travisimo - 16 Jul 2013 at 11:52am
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Dale
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  Quote Dale Replybullet Posted: 16 Jul 2013 at 8:23pm
Ha ha... love the Beaver.

I'm not sure what the real name of that hole is, but I seem to have dubbed it Beaverator. I was pointing it out to a friend, saying that everybody the year before kept saying it was really sticky, but I didn't see anybody getting stuck. Then all those people came through and were kind enough to demonstrate and feed the camera. Sorry for the shaky footage. I have a bad habit of laughing while shooting. http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Photo/do-search/?rivername=&rapidname=&title=&author=dale+perry&subject=&state=any&max=9&orderby=id&sort=desc&incphotos=on&incvideos=on&ext=&dosearch=Photo+Search

Note that the Beavorator Kid(15?) was there paddling alone. His Dad was the casually dressed fellow walking in front of the camera and looking concerned. Check the AW video for the blood and the "rescue". The Kid now has a blog. http://thebeaveratorkid.blogspot.com/

Good times.

I believe I put in below that hole.

:-)



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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 17 Jul 2013 at 11:06am
Originally posted by water wacko

JP, the pourover I was referring to in Lunch Hole is on the river right side and between 3-4000 gets low head-ish.
And since I'm talking about danger in Lunch Hole... just downstream of Lunch Hole (proper) is a wicked rock sieve that is in play if you're over there on the river left. Downstream about 30 feet on the left bank is a very active rock syphon that empty boats have gone through. I haven't heard of anyone swimming it yet, but low water brings out such features..


Huh. I've gotten some sick boofs off of that before. At those flows, I think. Never noticed it to be too threatening.

As far as the syphon goes, I've heard people mention of it but have never been able to tell exactly where its at. This is an example of low water hazards that should disabuse people from thinking extremely low flow (ELF) boating is automaticly safer than paddling stuff w/ more water.
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  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 17 Jul 2013 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by Dale

Ha ha... love the Beaver.

I'm not sure what the real name of that hole is, but I seem to have dubbed it Beaverator. I was pointing it out to a friend, saying that everybody the year before kept saying it was really sticky, but I didn't see anybody getting stuck. Then all those people came through and were kind enough to demonstrate and feed the camera. Sorry for the shaky footage. I have a bad habit of laughing while shooting. http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Photo/do-search/?rivername=&rapidname=&title=&author=dale+perry&subject=&state=any&max=9&orderby=id&sort=desc&incphotos=on&incvideos=on&ext=&dosearch=Photo+Search

Note that the Beavorator Kid(15?) was there paddling alone. His Dad was the casually dressed fellow walking in front of the camera and looking concerned. Check the AW video for the blood and the "rescue". The Kid now has a blog. http://thebeaveratorkid.blogspot.com/

Good times.

I believe I put in below that hole.

:-)





-Crazy. I'm sure I walked past when you were shooting the footy in '07, and if you are the guy I remember, I think you may have been part of a crew I hung out with at someone's family cabin for some beers and a video replay-a-thon.

-Didn't the Beaverator Kid (Eric Asdit) recently take a trip out here and fire up the LWS?
-Jay
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Dale
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  Quote Dale Replybullet Posted: 17 Jul 2013 at 6:04pm
Looks like that was shot in 2006.

I was scouting with Stephanie when I started shooting that video. She had long brown hair and probably looked a tad nervous. :-) Her, Meryl and I were travelling in a gold Toyota Sienna van with bikes on the back. Can't remember what I was paddling that year. Maybe an orange S6F?

I don't particularly remember the cabin scene you describe, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Our routine for a few years was a late August Hole Brothers > Beaver > more Hole Brothers > Ottawa > more Hole Brothers > Lower Yough > First weekend of Gauley releases.

I haven't seen the Kid since the video, but I've seen him pop up in the cyber world here and there. From the looks of his blog, he gets around pretty well.
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  Quote MN Mike Replybullet Posted: 18 Jul 2013 at 12:55am
This is a long-lived thread and I almost forgot the initial question when I started writing. Great carnage videos btw. Clearly the length of this thread is an indication of the importance of the topic and the variety of approaches that people take. I just wanted to add a few notes targeted to a more beginner-ish level since much of this conversation seems to have centered around solid boaters getting stuck in the gnar.

Holes are intimidating for most new boaters stepping into anything >2. If you paddle, you will flip in one. At some point, you may spend some quality time getting worked in a hole or two. However, I want to point out for all of the not-class-V boaters who are still REALLY intimidated by holes that most (definitely not all) of the holes on class III runs are pretty flushy. I’ve flipped in more than I care to admit and with VERY few exceptions I have flushed within a few seconds (although it always felt like AGES). While your first natural instinct when upside-down is to pull that skirt and get the heck out, I want to say that I have spent a few years paddling class III without swimming (knock on wood) because I have held out for my roll. I think that holding out for a good roll opportunity is a must-have skill if you want to progress in the sport. Definitely listen to all of the great advice on this thread from boaters more stout than myself, but remember that there are very few features on the ie: the lower green, that will hold you for more than a few seconds. Keep cool, keep your head down and wait for the waters to calm. Go to your happy place…

Learning how to keep your upside-down-mental game together until you flush from a hole is not an inconsequential step on your way to learning how to surf holes, boof holes and otherwise survive some pretty nasty beat-downs or other unfortunate events on the river. Much of this is a confidence game and confidence comes with experience. When I know that I have no major down-stream obstacles and my head isn’t banging on rocks, I hold out for the flush and a good roll opportunity. I firmly believe that in the middle of a rapid, you will always be better off in your boat than out, so it’s worth the effort to avoid the swim. That being said, we all need to breath… :)


Edited by MN Mike - 18 Jul 2013 at 12:59am
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  Quote irenen Replybullet Posted: 18 Jul 2013 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by JayB



-Didn't the Beaverator Kid (Eric Asdit) recently take a trip out here and fire up the LWS?


Yes, if you read his blog he did the Little White this year and apparently styled it.  I can not believe how sticky that Beavorator hole is, that was some great footage and some valiant hole rides.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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  Quote doggievacation Replybullet Posted: 18 Jul 2013 at 7:18pm
Here's my take on this thread:  If you're a Class II/III boater looking to move up into III+ and eventually IV, the things you need to work on are 1) Learn how to read water so you can see a hole coming with enough time to avoid it, and 2)  Learn how to do a true power stroke, one that will move you out of harms way quickly if you make a mistake reading water.  If you focus on those things, you will find that it is very, very rare that you end up in a hole while paddling Class III or III+ water.  Even if you're already swimming, you should be on the lookout for holes and make moves to avoid them.

As you move into Class IV, the water tends to become much more fast/powerful/pushy and yeah, maybe you still end up in a hole that you saw ahead of time but didn't have the boating skills to avoid.  It happens.  So I think it's great to know about hole exiting strategies and maybe even practice those skills in "controlled" situations, but if you find yourself ending up in a lot of holes, especially on III/III+ water, it's a good sign you need to work on reading water and controlling your boat.




Don't waste water!
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  Quote commander fun Replybullet Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 3:15pm
i know which seive youre talking about.  after i popped out of the hole, i saw my partner swimming down the left side toward those rocks. thankfully they were smart enough to swim into the main channel and swim through aquagasm.   
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  Quote Dale Replybullet Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 4:50pm
That's funny Commander. You'll not soon forget that!!! You're building memories of a lifetime. :-)

Any bodily damage? Gear damaged or lost? Swims are hard on gear n boats. I broke my first new paddle on my first big swim.

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  Quote commander fun Replybullet Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 5:48pm
no injuries, but for a few minutes i thought my partner might have been pinned under water because i lost sight of them.  i started panicking and scrambling down the rigth side of aquagasm thinking about the worst things that might have happened, when they climbed up over the backside of a boulder at the bottom of aquagasm.  i have never been more happy to see someone.  i literally thougth they were dead.  both paddles and an ik were lost, and then recovered.  the ik was hung up on a rock next to split rock, so that was an easy recovery.   i happened to find a raft paddle in the rocks below aquagasm,  so i used it to paddle the ik down in search of the 2 lost paddles.  i found mine near where all the fisherman hang out, and the other paddle was recovered by a raft company.  so it was a pretty wild day. first time stuck in a hole, first time i thought someone was drowning.   
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  Quote turtlepower Replybullet Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 7:02pm
Good to see you've been getting after it Greg! So did you have to trade the raft paddle you found in exchange for your paddle? Seems like a pretty good bartering piece if you ask me! All in all, glad it all turned out well!
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  Quote commander fun Replybullet Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 7:34pm
yeah it was a fair trade agreement.  and they also set me up with a nice bootie beer.

lets go paddling sometime.   i'll be on the sauk tommorow, if youre interested.
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  Quote JayB Replybullet Posted: 20 Jul 2013 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Dale

Looks like that was shot in 2006.

I was scouting with Stephanie when I started shooting that video. She had long brown hair and probably looked a tad nervous. :-) Her, Meryl and I were travelling in a gold Toyota Sienna van with bikes on the back. Can't remember what I was paddling that year. Maybe an orange S6F?

I don't particularly remember the cabin scene you describe, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Our routine for a few years was a late August Hole Brothers > Beaver > more Hole Brothers > Ottawa > more Hole Brothers > Lower Yough > First weekend of Gauley releases.

I haven't seen the Kid since the video, but I've seen him pop up in the cyber world here and there. From the looks of his blog, he gets around pretty well.


Oops - meant 2006. Seeing the multiple poundings in the Beaverator, and walking into the put in for the Eagle section and seeing the magnitude of those horizon lines for the first time are some of the more vivid memories I have from my first visit.

So - have you relocated to the West since then or are you just chiming in from afar?
-Jay
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  Quote Dale Replybullet Posted: 20 Jul 2013 at 6:17pm
I'm a KY native that's been living in Seattle for the last 4 years. My girlfriend Meryl grew up here.

My only complaint... COLD water!!! :-)

It's funny, I hadn't seen any carnage the year before. A lot of people at the Talorsville Section are either aspiring creekers or hard core creekers tuning it up in preparation for the Eagle and Mosher sections. Most avoided the hole at the bottom of the Big Slide. Everybody warned us about it, but we were trying to catch rides as we hit bottom. We found it difficult to stay in. Later, we saw Bubba near the takeout and he asked about the hole at the bottom of the Big Slide and I replied that people said it was sticky, but I couldn't manage to surf it. He said OK and started working his way upstream(falling off one of the big pipes in the process), then ran the big slide and apparently he was much better at surfing than me. He had a long violent ride(liquid Logic Airhead) and said he thought he was going to die. Apparently, just a tad more water makes that hole way way stickier than normal. Oops! No video of Bubba, but here's Meryl surfing a little... http://youtu.be/aeFlcKJzzVs

A fun run indeed.
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