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megspk
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  Quote megspk Replybullet Topic: Paddle Paddle
    Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 4:53pm
Ok Ladies and Gents, I'm looking into maybe getting another paddle eventually.  So far I have just paddled a 45 degree AT and now I've got a 30 degree small, bent shaft Werner Sherpa.
I'm looking for a good paddle for mostly river running.  I'm wanting to paddle the rivers a bit higher (in terms of volume) and I'm wondering if a larger blade (or different shape) is beneficial or if it's just personal preference when it comes to paddle performance?
I'd like to stick with Werner since they are local, but I'm open to any insight you guys have on paddles. 
Cheers!
“A strong person and a waterfall always channel their own path.” -Unknown

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tams
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  Quote tams Replybullet Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 7:48am
Our Sherpa and Powerhouse are the best fiberglass blades for river running. These are same shape, but the Powerhouse is a larger surface area. If you go up in surface area you will definitely feel it in two ways: 1)you'll have more power, and 2)you'll have more fatigue. Like anything, your body will get stronger and adapt to the larger blade size with time, but it is still more torque on the shoulders. Just keep this in mind when thinking about the prospect of getting chundered in a hole :)

If you are looking to go with something different, you can check out our Stikine or Shogun. These are the foam core river runners. Again, these two models are the same blade shape, with the Shogun being the larger of the two. The Stikine is my favorite paddle.

I personally think the smaller blade sizes (Sherpa and Stikine) provide plenty of power for all the rivers and creeks out here, but like you said -- it really comes down to personal preference. And everyone is going to have their opinion on what's best. If you are feeling underpowered you could consider going up in length as well.

If you want to demo some different options let me know and we can arrange something!

Thanks for sticking with Werner!
Tammy - Werner Engineering
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Jed Hawkes
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  Quote Jed Hawkes Replybullet Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 1:03pm
So, I'm going to preface the following with the statement that all paddle shapes and preferences are really up to the paddler and you should try as many shapes and styles as possible but here is my philisophy on paddle blades, paddle shafts, and paddling.

Blade size: I think that a more medium to small blade shape is best for most river running. The paddles that have the large surface areas are great when you need to destroy that one must make boof, but in general paddling I think that they have too much resistance. The smaller blades allow you to get a higher SPM (Strokes Per Minute) and I've always felt that I've gotten a better and smoother stroke. You can take a cue from the greenland style paddles, they are tiny in surface area but the people who use them swear by them (keep in mind that the Greenland style paddle was born out of a scarcity of materials and not necessarily out of performance so the argument might be moot). In regards to the boof the importance is a good full stroke and not a huge blade. Jeremy bission boofs the crap out of stuff and he was paddling with a cue tip for a while there.

Blade size is not equal to a better stroke, finding a blade size that feels the most fluid in the water for you is really the most important.

Blade Shape: When it comes to blade shapes there are a couple ideas. The advantage of the shape of the powerhouse is that you have that large bulge on the bottom edge of the blade that makes sweeps and low angle strokes powerful. The advantage to the play blades is that "bulge" is gone allowing you to get your paddle stroke as vertical and as close to your hull as possible. The play blades are most similar to a slalom paddle which is only concerned with the forward stroke. I prefer the play paddles for this reason, I always found that the "bulge" on the river running paddles was always interfering with my stroke (on my last powerhouse I ended up grinding off that part of the blade).

Blade Material: If you want a blade that will last for your paddling career the fiberglass blades are the way to go. My modified Powerhouse is my go-to low water or rocky river paddle because I can trust that it will stand up to the abuse.

I like the way that the foam core feels in the water but don't like the price, and they aren't as durable, the foam core is more prone to cracking or breaking. The advantage to the foam core for me is the buoyant blades and the thicker blades. The buoyancy seem to give a nicer pop out of the water as the end of your stroke, and the thicker blade gives it a nicer feel when slicing the blade through the water on dufek strokes. The thicker blades feel like a a displacement hull when slicing the water, because of this they don't get caught on micro currents as much and are more predictable. The foam core is my go-to paddle for most conditions.

Shaft material and design:there is always going to be the straight shaft vs. bentshaft argument and the fiberglass vs. carbon argument. They both have their place but here is my two cents.

I use a straight shaft fiberglass shaft. I like the straight shaft for a few reasons, for one I have a narrow grip so the bent shaft paddles were always too wide for me, also they don't give me the wrist pain I got with bent shafts. But wait Jed, isn't the bent shaft supposed to be better for your wrist? I've always felt that the bent shaft is great for your wrist for a low angle sea-kayak paddle but not a high angle stroke. Why is this? It's because the idea that you have a "power hand" is garbage. When you take a proper stroke you are not just using the one arm that is on the side of the stroke you are using your torso and both arms. When your upper hand is holding onto a bent shaft it is actually being twisted further back than it would be if it was holding a straight shaft. Your "power hand" is all lined up and ergonomically correct but your other hand is getting a major tweak. Really I think that the bent shaft is as much a marketing ploy as ergonomics.

I like the fiberglass because it has enough flex in it that it is a bit easier on the joints. The carbon shafts are much stiffer and in turn transfer much more of your energy from your stroke to the water,but that same energy that you transfer to the shaft also comes back to you when you take a mis-stroke. If I was big on racing I would have a carbon shaft paddle just for races. The flex you get from a fiberglass shaft helps to keep fatigue down and in my opinion will result in the shaft flexing instead of breaking in those moments of extreme force(anecdotal).

I would recommend trying out a different combination of shafts, materials and blades before diving into a new stick. Also test a paddle for a whole run so you can really get a feel for it, the river is dynamic and paddling around in a eddy for a few minutes isn't going to give you the feedback that you need to make a educated decision.

Good luck and see you on the water.

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SOPBOATER
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  Quote SOPBOATER Replybullet Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 7:13pm
Meg, fwiw if I can't paddle a straight shaft wood paddle of excellent workmanship and design then my next choice is a fiberglass straight shaft with largish blades. I like the Werner powerhouse allot. I like the flex of wood or glass. Carbon paddles are too stiff for my taste and shoulder condition. I like to keep it simple as well and don't find bent shafts appealing. With the choices you have given I would pick the powerhouse. Also you have allot of blade to wear down thus being able to use the paddle longer. I don't like starting with small blades on a glass paddle as they will wear eventually and be smaller yet.
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jondufay
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  Quote jondufay Replybullet Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 10:19pm
Blunt family paddles!   Trust the woodie...

Edited by jondufay - 26 Jun 2015 at 10:19pm
ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating...
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  Quote Ellingferd Replybullet Posted: 27 Jun 2015 at 9:10am
My biggest recommendation, particularly if you do a lot of paddling (specifically playboating), is to get a fiberglass shaft werner or an at flexi. I had to switch from werner to at because werner no longer made glass bent shafts, which I prefer because using their carbon shaft, which is about as stiff as is possible, gave me pretty bad tendonitis in both elbows. I think werner makes an incredible paddle, and I have a straight shaft glass powerhouse, but their carbon shafts are far too stiff in my opinion. You cant go wrong with a wood paddle from blunt or Jim Snyder either. Definitely a pretty penny, but something you will cherish, is repairable, and will be a lot more meaningful than a glass/composite stick.
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megspk
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  Quote megspk Replybullet Posted: 27 Jun 2015 at 10:44am
Thanks everyone! There's lots to factor in, sounds like I just need to try a few different paddles and see what works.
“A strong person and a waterfall always channel their own path.” -Unknown

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megspk
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  Quote megspk Replybullet Posted: 27 Jun 2015 at 10:46am
Do all companies offer the small shaft option? *no snickering!
“A strong person and a waterfall always channel their own path.” -Unknown

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NateW
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  Quote NateW Replybullet Posted: 29 Jun 2015 at 8:15am
I prefer straight shaft because it's cheaper, and it's what I learned on. I would say that it's easier to find a consistent hand position on a bent shaft paddle, but that can be solved on a straight shaft w/ tape or other hand markers.

I am currently using a 197 powerhouse, which is sort of the default river runner paddle around here. I would love to try out a Sherpa, thinking along the same lines as Jed. I find that the size of the powerhouse can sometimes make the paddle 'get stuck' when trying to make those first initial strokes.I also have a bit of a bum shoulder, and I think the Sherpa would probably be a little easier on it.

I think having the proper length of paddle makes a big difference in what works best, and I'd say that unless you have shoulder issues, you shouldn't need to switch around. I have a 194 I use on my playboat, and it is too short to use in my creekboat.

This thread is going to make me very tempted to buy a Sherpa, anyone have a 197 they'd trade for a nearly new powerhouse?
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megspk
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  Quote megspk Replybullet Posted: 29 Jun 2015 at 10:39am
Yeah I'm starting to think I'd like a 197 paddle and not necessary change the type blade I'm using. I feel like I'm reaching a lot when I'm paddling and I knock my fingers on the boat a lot (not sure if this is because my paddle is too short). Someone else mentioned it may help with the roll too, by offering a bit more length.....I like that idea.
I paddled with a straight shaft (my breakdown) and that was so different than the bent shaft. Do you have to do anything different style wise with the straight shafts? I felt like I was missing more strokes with the straight shaft or just not getting the same power from it (the blades are the same as my bent shaft).
How does the straight shaft protect your wrists?
“A strong person and a waterfall always channel their own path.” -Unknown

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NateW
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  Quote NateW Replybullet Posted: 29 Jun 2015 at 2:42pm
197 river running paddles are probably the most common out there.

I think part of the theory with the bent shafts were that it was easier on your wrists. I swear someone on here actually did a thesis paper looking into this claim, and found no real evidence of it. That being said, some people really like bent shafts, so more power to 'em.
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  Quote Slackkinhard Replybullet Posted: 29 Jun 2015 at 2:52pm
I've been in the same situation as Meg.  I've got several different paddles I've picked up in various sizes and shapes. Honestly, I think I liked the $40 dollar, 45 degree, 200cm straight shaft, plastic NRS paddle the best, but folks tell me the plastic breaks, so I obtained a bent 30 degree carbon Stikine which I've been using for a couple months. I've also got some 45 degree fiberglass IK paddles that are a bit too long for the creeks, but work well in a bigger river. My skill set really doesn't demand much from my paddle, so we'll see how things progress.  I would really like to get my hands on a 197cm, fiberglass straight shaft, with zero feather, but in the end, I just need to learn how to paddle better


Edited by Slackkinhard - 29 Jun 2015 at 2:53pm
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Jed Hawkes
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  Quote Jed Hawkes Replybullet Posted: 29 Jun 2015 at 4:29pm
the following are some links to Jim Snyders theories on paddles and paddling.

http://rivrstyx.com/stroke-theory/
Take this link with a grain of salt, he talks from a racers Vs. Cruisers perspective. I think there are things that racers do that can be transferred to a creek environment. He really pushes the idea that you should paddle so you can be efficient for all day paddling but for the most part I think there is good stuff to glean from this.

http://rivrstyx.com/the-feather-rap/
Jim's theories on feathering paddles. It's part history part unpacking of what practice went into determining the modern common feather angles.

Food for thought.
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  Quote Butchv Replybullet Posted: 02 Jul 2015 at 10:04am
Meg,
I used a straight shaft for years and found that my wrists were bothering me. So, I converted to a bent shaft and the pain went away. I know they are more money but the bent shaft seems to help my wrists. I personally prefer a shorter paddle. I use a 194 and think it is about right for a 5'6" dude.
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