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tradguy2
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Topic: Ethics of clearing wood Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 10:12am |
As we all know, wood is one of the big hazads on the river and removing it would be to the benefit of kayakers. This brings up and interesting question. Is it ethical to remove wood hazards from a river? Obviously, this is not a black and white issue. Rivers that are in designated wilderness areas are legaly supposed to be left in their natural state so obviously those rivers are off limits. A better example is the Raging River in the Preston Fall City area. From what I understand, this is a great run that is often dangerous because of riverwide logs and strainers. Would it be unethical to remove wood hazards there? There are other factors that come into play as well. Wood provides shelter for fish, slows the current for wildlife, provides a place for insects to breed (and therfore provide food for fish and birds). Generally speaking, a river in the northwest needs wood to be a healthy riparian ecosystem.
Any thoughts? Remember, I'm not suggesting (or currently planning) a wood removel quest. I have however been faced with situations where wood was an obvious hazard and wondered if I was able to make the river safer, should I? Or are there other things we as boaters and stewards of our sport should consider?
Edited by tradguy2
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RemAcct2
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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 10:19am |
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:28
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tradguy2
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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 11:09am |
Thanks for the thoughts Leif. I was looking for something with more of a legal or scientific basis rather than a religious justification for clearing wood. If you read Genesis 1:28 cerefully it says "replenish the earth" which to me implies a sort of caretaker role for humanity. Now, I'm no expert on scripture, but I think that having dominion over the earth and it's creatures isn't a free pass to do harm. On the contrary, I believe the good book advocates living within our means and avoiding a life of excess.
That being said, it is still good food for thought. Bravo.
Edited by tradguy2
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j berry
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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 12:31pm |
well for my personal opionon i think it is good to clear some brush away for the sport, for instance there is a nice wave on the last rapid of the Yo-Yo run but it is noo good to surf because of brush overhang right above the wave i have since removed it and noone noticed because it was not slowing water or providing fish with any kind of friendly habitat, it was just a pain to boaters. Now if there was a riverwide log then im sure someone at the fish and game department would throw a fit and want to put someone in jail. So as for running the raging river, i dont think that will happen anytime soon.
Jeremy
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Scott_H
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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 12:41pm |
I am sure that in most cases, a removal probably violates some law, whether or not it is in a wilderness area. But, I wouldn't consider someone removing a small log spanning a blind gap of rocks at chest level on a popular river to be unethical. Probably saving someone's bacon - like mine.
I remember reading that years ago some guides got in trouble in Colorado (?) for actually blasting a rock out of the river that had created a keeper hole that had killed people. I wish I could find that story - it had a great discussion of the ethical debate involved. They tried to do it secretly since they knew it was clearly illegal, but justified it since the rock had and likely still would have killed people. It wouldn't surprise me though that even in that case people would have argued against the blasting and a couple guides were prosecuted.
I look at climbing as offering some parallels - it is somewhat acceptable on routes to trundle loose rocks endangering a route or fauna obstructing a route. The practice certainly has its detractors, but my guess is more climbers do it than not. Whether legal or not I think there is a general acceptance that our mere presence on this earth alters it - the extent to which we alter it is where it gets grey.
If someone moves a log that could have killed me, I won't complain.
Not that I would ever move it, but that monster log at House Rocks on the MM tends to scare me. Pretty avoidable, but if that disappeared I wouldn't lament its loss.
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tradguy2
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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 2:01pm |
I agree Scott. As a climber, I'm familiar with similar debates about various issues dealing with that sport. I'm just trying to get a consensus from the local paddling community. I think topics like this are worth discussing.
As for the incident in Co. I've heard about it. Personally, I'm glad the rock was altered; it didn't have any negative effects on the environment and made the river safer. Unfortunately, when it comes to the law, it is difficult to make exceptions because of the fear of the "slippery slope" argument (if blasting a rock is acceptable in a wilderness area why not change the river to make the rapids more fun?). Hopefully, we never find ourselves in such a dilemma.
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James
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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 5:00pm |
I am sure I will catch some flack for this but, I say forget that legal
crap... the fish are fine... don't get me wrong, just like California
Cheese, I think that happy salmon makes for better BBQ but removing
downed logs and the such is way over played. It is ridiculous in my
opinion. If you have enough money and legal background you can write
some wonderful verbiage, get the courts backing and ruin an entire
species, but if you are a law abiding citizen trying to help people out
and you make some fish upset you get slapped up one side and down the
other...
Remove the dead wood... from everywhere starting in our courts and local government and ending in our poor political rivers!
James
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dave
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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 6:23pm |
My opinion may be shocking, because I want a man made rapid built on one of our local rivers like they did in Reno. It's awsome, got two great cartwheel holes and a couple of good surf waves on the Truki right in town! I wonder how the fish like that? It's better than some monolithic hydro dam.
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iann
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Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 9:14pm |
Just 2 cents,
If you want to clear wood off the Raging, bring a logging crew.
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tradguy2
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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 10:42am |
Wow, is there that much wood on the Raging. I thought an afternoon with a z-pulley and maybe a saw would do the trick.
I agree with Dave, at least to some extent. I am all for whitewater parks. In most cases the play features would actually improve the ecosystem. The Truckee River in Reno for example has been channeled with bank hardening so the features actually mimic natural structure to some degree. I would not be in favor of putting cement blocks in the middle of a relatively untouched river but I would love to see a whitewater park on the Lower Green or Cedar Rivers. Who is with me.
On that note, does anyone know if one has ever been proposed in western Washington? They can be a real benefit to the surrounding community. How would we go about getting one?
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tradguy2
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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 10:45am |
James makes a great point. With a some financial backing, we can get anything accomplished. Maybe we can get organized and get some some local shops and organizations to get something going. If we could convince some city a whitewater park would financially benefit them, I bet they would go for it.
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jasonsalvo
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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 1:01pm |
For whatever this is worth... I just spent about a half an hour looking
through our state and federal laws trying to figure out if it is in fact illegal
for a private citizen to clear a log jam from a river, and the answer that I
came up with is that it probably is not illegal. I could very well be wrong,
but I couldn't find one law that prevented a private citizen from doing
that, and some that seemed to require a city to do so if the log jam was
dangerous.
As for the ethics of such things, I'd have to say that doing anything which
harms endangered species is never ok for the sake of sport, but if it
doesn't harm fish or the environment in some way, and I find it hard to
believe that clearing a log jam could do that, then it just can't be bad.
Two more cents: as kayakers, we are dependent on snowfall, rain, and the
government for our continued ability to kayak here in the NW, and we
should all be especially tuned-in to how our actions might affect our
sport. A lot of scientists now think that global warming is going to make
northwest winters more and more like they were last year - warm weather
storms and low snow pack - which will mean no more skiing, no more
snowpack, no more snow melt, restrictions on river use to protect
salmon, and thus, no more kayaking for one reason or another. It's true
that some people think that global warming isn't real... but are we willing
to take that chance?
That being said, if clearing a log jam one one of many rivers around here
could jeapordize our access to other rivers, are we willing to take that
chance?
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tradguy2
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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 1:13pm |
Well, I don't think I'm ready to throw a wood clearing party yet, but I'm certainly going to carry a few things in my boat from now on that might make it easier to clear dangerous wood. I don't think too much is required. I suspuct that a the rope from a throw bag and some pulleys that should be normally carried for rescue (but usually are not... oops!) would be a good start. I think there are some really lightweight and compact saws on the market that might be worth bring on trips to certain rivers.
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jasonsalvo
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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 1:59pm |
Ok, so I was partly wrong in my last post. It turns out if a river is
designated "Wild and Scenic," which it looks like only the Skagit is in
Washington, then you cannot remove log jams if by removing the logs
you would seriously affect the river.
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tradguy2
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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 3:22pm |
The White Salmon is also designated Wild and Scenic. I'm pretty sure the same rules apply to any river that lies within a National Park or Wilderness areas. I think rivers in national forests are fair game.
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jasonsalvo
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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 3:41pm |
The Klikitat as well.
http://www.nps.gov/rivers/wildriverslist.html#wa
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James
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Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 4:25pm |
This is exactly what I am talking about....
The word "Seriously"... with enough money and debate you could argue
that for hours... Now I am not saying money can buy you brains
... or a good legal team...
What I am saying is that with enough money you can exhaust the
government over the word "Seriously" until it is no longer financially
viable to fight the opposition. That is the down fall... that is the
reason big companies can walk all over little people, because in court
you can simply be drug out till your Broke...and they aren't.
That is all I am getting at ... what is it called "The Golden Rule"
He with the Gold makes the rules.
James
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PaulC
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Posted: 20 Aug 2005 at 10:30pm |
Originally posted by Scott_H
I remember reading that years ago some guides got in trouble in Colorado (?) for actually blasting a rock out of the river that had created a keeper hole that had killed people. I wish I could find that story - it had a great discussion of the ethical debate involved. They tried to do it secretly since they knew it was clearly illegal, but justified it since the rock had and likely still would have killed people. It wouldn't surprise me though that even in that case people would have argued against the blasting and a couple guides were prosecuted.
Link to the said incident: http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=196
It was back in 93, Quartzite Falls on Arizons's Salt river. It wasn't a one time thing; these guys did it over a few months over at least 5 trips to the site if I remember correctly. I am pretty sure they all did some time.
My intro to this debate came when I was an 18 year old getting trained to be a raft guide. We were on a river in a national park (not wilderness) and came around a bend that had a notorious tree on the outside corner. We practiced z-drags and tried to pull it off. This caused some grumbles amongst some of the more exprienced folks. The tree didn't budge. It turns out one of the experienced guides had actually brought a chainsaw along (thats how things get done on the OP - Olympic Penninsula) in a big drybag. He got ready to fire it up and a pretty intense shouting match ensued between partes on either side of the fence.
Was it legal to cut it out? No. Was it right? I still can't say. It sucks to screw too much with nature to make our lines more convenient. But I can also speak to how much it sucks to lose a friend to a strainer. Its a true dilema.
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tradguy2
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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 at 9:18am |
Great points Paul. I'm not really sure what the right answer is either. The fact is every situation is different and needs to be judged ion its own merits. It can be a difficult decision, particularly because we have a biased view of things based on our sport of choice. The main reason I borought up this topic, was to get people thinking about it, I've heard a few discussinos about it on the river and a few individuals made is sound as thought there was only one right answer. IMHO there are very few issues that are very black and white if you really take the time to understand various points of views.
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j berry
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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 at 10:44am |
Well I think the incident back in 93 in arizona is a little extreme, I mean they blew up a well known fall, but I think clearing logs would be fine because if its some river in the middle of nowhere (as most of them are) then the access is almost stricly boaters and if we improve the line then they shouldnt complain. but, if someone does complain, then how are they going to know who did it?
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jasonsalvo
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Posted: 22 Aug 2005 at 10:49am |
I don't think the issue is whether anyone coudl catch you, the issue is
whether it's ethical and/or legal.
As far as ethics go, If it's a fact that removing a log jam harms an
endangered species, which probably depends on a lot of things, but for
the sake of argument, let's say it does, then can you justify the harm
you'll cause to that species merely because removing the log jam makes
your hobby safer or easier?
Whether it's legal, that is a factual question that I am trying to find an
answer to and will keep everybody posted on what I find.
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