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James
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Sum Dum Guy
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Topic: Do U R2? Posted: 26 May 2010 at 3:27pm |
I am preparing to buy a raft and I am looking at the following models.
NRS E136 - 13' 6" w/19.5" tubes NRS E140 - 14' w/ 20" tubes Hyside 163SBU - 13' 10" w/19" tubes
I am planning to do a fair amount of R2'n about various rivers and of course I would like to be able to pack up the friends or family for trips. So the question is do the Rafters in the crowd think those 3 will all be comparable or will there be a big difference in the length and width for r2n. I like the idea of having a 14' so I could take more family down the river but will the extra length really mess up the R2 factor?
~J
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JoesKayak
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Posted: 26 May 2010 at 3:46pm |
You're not going to see alot of difference in those models, so you may as well get a 14'. You're not going to get a real noticable difference in sportiness unless you drop down to a 13 footer or 12 footer.
My 14' maravia R2s like a champ... but then it's a stiffer boat than any of those hypalon rafts you listed.
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Jed Hawkes
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Posted: 26 May 2010 at 3:47pm |
I've had most of my R-2 experience in 13-14ft rafts, and I think that some of the smaller "r-2" specific rafts are too small, making them hole bait and flip easily. The real advantage to smaller is their ability to fit in small places. The 13' rafts are good all around rafts, you can R-2 effectivly and you can stick a frame on 'er and fill it will gear, and if you want to trash your friends you can give them a paddle and drop into grannies in the middle of the night . The Hypolon rafts are good if it's not getting abused, and are simpler to patch on your own, but I have become a fan of the PVC rafts (Aire, Sotar, etc.) Aire having the advantage of the bladder/shell combo, providing an opportunity for the shell to rip and not the bladder.
As far as your choices go, I'd grab a hyside before an NRS. I've commercially run both and the NRS always had little issues, like broken battens that hold in the tubes, delamination of scuff patches, the handles coming off etc. The Hyside is a better constructed raft, but with it there is price. Ultimately if comes down to how much your going to be using and abusing it. If your gonna be running rivers with Hans I'd go with something on the durable side, if your going be running the sky a bunch it doesn't really matter all that much. My votes goes for the Hyside. Plus it's a compromise, it's between 13 and 14 feet and it has smaller tubes than the other two.
-Jed
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BRoss
McNasty
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Posted: 26 May 2010 at 4:53pm |
I agree with Jed. When I was guiding, our best rafts were old selfbailing 13' Hysides. Bombproof. We got these new NRS 14 footers and had to replace handles and footcups all the time. They looked prettier, but just weren't as good. I want to buy a raft in the next ~year or so, and if I could find one of those old gray Hysides, I would buy it in a second.
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"That boated a lot better than it looked." "It always does until it doesn't."
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Fish
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Posted: 26 May 2010 at 5:08pm |
James, since rowing isn't something you listed, you want to be paddle this raft with other people occassionaly, but mainly R2 right?
I would NOT get a 14 footer. This size of boat can carry 7-8 people in a paddle team, but isnt so great on small volume rivers i ran a 14 footer down Truss, however, i have also paddled a mini me, 12 footer and 13 footer in there. The 12 and 13 did best!
What you want is a 13 footer. Thoughts... Aire has the best warranty, and is easiest to repair. Sotar is a bit lighter, and with the saleshotsheet comes in at a good value. NRS has a solid design, but as Jed pointed out, they have quality issues... These are the models i reccommend.
1. Aire 130 D or E series $ 4200 2. Sotar 13ft (sales hotsheet) $3500 3. NRS E136 $3600
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jP
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Posted: 26 May 2010 at 6:13pm |
Jed and Fish are both authoritative and qualified in their opinions, it goes without saying.
I agree with Fish that you may want to go with a 13' boat- but width would be the primary concern of mine. The smaller boat generally being more narrow for those tights squeezes. A 13 footer would suit you best if you plan on paddling up the scale frequently (class V).
Then again as Jed pointed out, you will be hole bait more often, so then you'll have to deal with those limitations when you get onto highwater runs.
I loved guiding on the E boat in Montana (Aire). With the pointy bow and high "poop deck", it really performed like a hardshell kayak more than any raft I've paddled since. The PVC/Bladder thing they got goin on is a good idea, durability wise. some people complain about the floor design and the way it absorbs water because it is heavey when you pull it out of the river to carry it. But this water in the floor is designed to provide a sort of ballast that relaly minimizes flipping. I think it has its merits.
Other than that I'm a new convert to Sotars. I never really ran Sotars till last year on the White Salmon, and I was impressed by their design and construction. If you are going with a new Sotar, you may want to really do your homework because you will have a surprising array of options. In fact, it would be worth talking to me or Jed about the Sotars that All Adventures Rafting uses for their WS operation. They were custom built to buckle less than most other rafts on the river, specifically for running Hussum Falls.
Never was a fan of the Hysides. And not just because the name sucks ("yeah get ready folks- we'll be High Siding all the way down the river with this sh*tty raft"--just kidding they aren't that bad.) They are sticky. so they tend to get hung up on low water runs in a way that Aires and Sotars won't. Really I just didn't like the shape of their boats, or the way the interior is outfitted (where the thwarts attach and how spaced out they are-- for R2 action you'll want to consider where your thwarts need to be.)
One thing's for sure- you'll want to start buying your 303 lovejuice by the gallon! Armorall that bitch up frequently and it'll last you a long time and even slide over rocks better!
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JoesKayak
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Posted: 27 May 2010 at 10:15am |
I have to agree also with the AIRE 130E as being a fantastic all around fit for you. It is a super sporty paddle boat, but still big enough to take a rowing frame and give a nice stable ride for taking friends/family down.
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JoesKayak
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Posted: 27 May 2010 at 11:11am |
Another good option for the money would be the 13' Aire Tributary... surprised Slickhorn didn't mention that since he has the 12'. Or maybe he now knows something I don't, but those Tributaries seems like nice damn boats for the $$$.
http://www.aire.com/aire/products/default.aspx?id=221
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JoesKayak
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Posted: 27 May 2010 at 11:23am |
James I'm thinking about this some more and one big factor in how you use it, is do you plan on taking friends and family on paddle trips down the Wenatchee or do you also want to put on a frame and gear for overnighter trips with passengers. If you plan on the latter, I think you really do need a full on 14 footer to handle that load.
If you're just looking for paddling with 4-5 peeps, though, a 13 footer would be a better option as it will be a better R2 boat and handle up to 6 paddlers just fine too.
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jP
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Posted: 27 May 2010 at 11:27am |
Originally posted by slickhornFish has good points. I'm surprised you aren't looking at a super puma though. To me, for paddle boatin' and not rowing, the super puma is the best fit...
you might consider a shredder.
yeah, The Super Puma is a sporty raft, but it's kinda weird and it won't be as versatile. I realize it's possible that I'm just not familiar enough with it to make it work for me, but it seems more prone to flipping. It is a more narrow boat. Like a lot of boats in general it probabaly just takes a little getting used to. I don't think it would be my choice though if I were you.
And you know about the Shredder: great boat and super sporty. I'd get a shredder before getting a Super Puma, although the Super Puma would be more versatile. Shredders have sticky rubber though and so you can really get launched by abrupt stops on grabby rocks! The cool thing about shredders is this:
You can hike one in on your back and Get the Thunder! Your partner can carry the other gear, and you can split your overnight stuff and get the GC Elwha (no problem if you are proficient enough with your Shredder!) Once you can run a Shredder you can take it creeking in all sorts of class V situations, but at hte expense of versatility for sure.
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James
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Posted: 27 May 2010 at 1:49pm |
It is now down to these 13' 6" SP Sotar with diminished 20" tubes and the WIB floor with 3 thwarts $4000 13' NRS replica of the Super Puma 20" diminished tubes and 1460 hypalon $4800 13' HySide Outfitter grade with 19.5" Tubes and the heavy duty hypalon $3800
I am leaning towards the Sotar. I have paddled all of these boats before so at least I know the difference I just haven't R2'd any of them.
I do plan on doing the frame someday but I think at first this is going to be a r2 and packing friends and family thing. The shredder as cool as it sounds is not in the running for the friends and family part.
J
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Jed Hawkes
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Posted: 27 May 2010 at 3:17pm |
SOTAR!
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James
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Sum Dum Guy
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Posted: 27 May 2010 at 3:20pm |
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Fish
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Posted: 27 May 2010 at 3:37pm |
Sawyer paddles makes great wood whitewater rafting/canoeing paddles. Get a nice wood stick for yourself! Buy cheap Carlisle paddles for your crew
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James
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Sum Dum Guy
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Posted: 27 May 2010 at 3:45pm |
Originally posted by FishBuy cheap Carlisle paddles for your crew Buy ???
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1150lbsofaire
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Posted: 28 May 2010 at 8:39am |
you want a 13' aire for sure and for creekin you want the E. the rocker on it roles over ledge holes like know other and at the same time i am able to take a herd of cattle over husum with out getting my hair wet. i have riped three holes in my pvc and not once had to stop a trip to fix a hole. im still undecided over the sealed and unsealed floors. i think carrying water in my floor helps keep a seal with the river that has kep my boat up right when it shound not have been. DO NOT BUY A GREEN BOAT, we have found white and red dont over heat like green, nothing over heats like green.
good chance ill be in leavenworth this weekend if you want a demo
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lookin for a bow cap for a storm
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1150lbsofaire
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Posted: 28 May 2010 at 8:42am |
carlisles are the shiz, nothing like loosing your paddle and not carrying because they are free
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lookin for a bow cap for a storm
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James
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Posted: 28 May 2010 at 8:50am |
For me and the masses.
Give me the big break down on Sotar vs Aire. They are both PVC boats, they both don't flex like a hypalon but what is the differences and why would you go with either one?
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JoesKayak
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Posted: 28 May 2010 at 9:34am |
Brian makes really good points and is pretty spot on.
Also, as he alluded to... the hypalon boats roll up and store rolled better than the PVC or Urethane boats like Sotar, Aire. That's the probably the biggest advantage the hypalon boats have over the PVC/Urethane boats.
As far as the performance characteristics of AIRE vs Sotar rafts, I can break that down pretty well as I have used both quite a bit.
If you compare a similarly equipped model (13' Aire vs 13' sotar, or 14' Aire vs 14' Sotar) this is basic difference:
Sotar: will be slightly lighter and stiffer. And will manuever a bit more crisply. It will also have a big wetter ride as the bow profile tends to dig into the waves more than the Aires.
AIRE: A little heavier (not much but a bit). The "R" and "E" models will have a drier ride and ride up over waves better than the sotar because they have more kick up front... not entirely sure about the "D" models, as I haven't used them as much but with their diminished tubes, I think they'll have a more sotar type of performance than the others. Also the Aires are a bit beefier (again with the "R" models being the stoutest with the "E" being a little smaller) which makes for a more stable ride and they really excel in big pushy water...
For example, guiding on the Sky I have worked for a company with both Aires and Sotars. When the level is 2-4k most guides all want the Sotars. When she's up and roaring 6, 7K or more, I always go for an AIRE because I know they will plow though the big stuff in the drop like a beast.
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