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up4air
McNasty
Joined: 20 May 2009
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Posts: 400
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   Topic: A little overreaction? Just maybe??
Posted: 14 Jun 2010 at 3:06pm |
 No one died. A few bruises. An upset family. But handcuffs? Good gawwwwd. The guide was probably trying to use his better judgement against an untrained state agency.
stupid, biased, one-sided article of a rafting incident.
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More water, please.
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Wiggins
PP Junkie
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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Posted: 14 Jun 2010 at 5:46pm |
Without any details about what led up to the guide's arrest it is impossible to say if anyone over reacted. I could see it going either way. As far as training goes. Some agencies train for water rescues, some agencies use mutual aid agreements, or trained SAR volunteers.
I am a SAR deputy, and let me tell you when people try and help more often than not they are idiots who have no business being near a technical rescue. If they aren't ticketed SAR members, or if I can't personally speak to their qualifications then they get no where near my scene.
It sounds harsh, but the cops are responsible for whatever happens once they are on scene. Ignoring all the legal issues aside (getting sued is the least of my worries, if the deputy is negligent it can lead to assault or manslaughter charges), if someone dies I am the one responsible. I am the one who has tell the family. I am the one who has to deal with the friends. I have to live with it.
SAR volunteers can be a handful on their own, until there is a quick way to tell the people worth deploying from the ones who don't belong there very few SAR coordinators are going to be willing to use spontaneous volunteers. If someone tries to interfer, and they continue to cause problems after being told to back off then they are going to jail. The sooner they are gone the better.
I am not saying the cops never over react, just ask JP about his arrest after being a SAR victim, but there are a lot of unkowns here.
Kyle
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I smell bacon
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water wacko
Master Poster
Team Jackson
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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Posted: 14 Jun 2010 at 10:41pm |
Wouldn't want to get on officer friendly's bad side there. 
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up4air
McNasty
Joined: 20 May 2009
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Posted: 15 Jun 2010 at 9:17am |
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well it's irritating that the article goes on about how the boat went down a class 20 rapid killing everyone! oh wait, no, they missed the eddy (clients forgot to paddle?) and although there was a swim, everyone made it home safe. Yet they don't say exactly what the guide was trying to do that landed him in cuffs or give any of his side of the story.
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More water, please.
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water wacko
Master Poster
Team Jackson
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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Posted: 15 Jun 2010 at 9:38am |
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The guide swam out to the victim after S&R had taken over the rescue. The article had a couple quotes from "raft guides" who were 13 and 15 about how imperative it is to get to the victim NOW "at all costs". I don't agree with that statement, but if you can swim to them to help them at least get out of the water, that would be a help. I can feel the frustration of the scene, though. You have a sh*t show, find all your people. Someone called 911, though and the S&R got nothin better going on so they respond quickly and take over your scene. Then everything slows waaay down. Bummer. Once they take over, though, S&R has legal jurisdiction. One thing I've done is to quickly find the CO and tell him of my experience and skill. They may listen if you sound competent and act calm.
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dave
Master Poster
D4
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
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Posted: 15 Jun 2010 at 10:46am |
Clear Creek is a creek and a mighty wicked creek at that. It moves very fast, faster than any river I have ever seen and many rafters have died on this Creek. There are few eddies that a raft can catch safely and once in trouble, a raft has little chance to recover if any.
I have kayaked this Creek a lot and have had my ass beat down many times on it.
I dont blame the rescue guys at all for wanting everyone out of the way. I have the most respect for this creek, especially when it is running full blast, like right now...
Some raft guides think they are the sh*t...but not on Clear Creek...they just die on that creek...many have died there...
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Nomad
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Tobin
Forum Moderator
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Location: United States
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Posts: 1845
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Posted: 15 Jun 2010 at 11:27am |
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Maybe the Cop should have punched him in the face for J Walking?
Kidding, I saw the video, totally justified.
Not to go off topic, but what is it with someone thinking it is ok to assault an officer?
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Sure?
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PowWrangler
PP Junkie
Joined: 04 Jul 2006
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Posts: 793
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Posted: 15 Jun 2010 at 11:34am |
It's weird this happened to AVA as they are one of the best companies in Colorado. Sounds like their guides were not of the caliber of their Gore guides. I read a little bit over on Mountainbuzz and it sounds like there's blame to shared for both the guide and the fuzz.
I'll also add that while this river (and it is a river) flows fast at high water and has an unfriendly river bed, the section this happened on is not some crazy maelstrom of death and carnage, it's pretty standard class IV with only one long rapid and lots of smaller ones.
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up4air
McNasty
Joined: 20 May 2009
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Posted: 15 Jun 2010 at 11:41am |
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Where are you guys getting more details of this incident? Must be a better article out there? I've also done a couple sections of Clear Creek, and some of it was pretty intense.
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More water, please.
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up4air
McNasty
Joined: 20 May 2009
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Posts: 400
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Posted: 15 Jun 2010 at 11:42am |
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duh,,, just saw "mountain buzz" will check it out :).
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More water, please.
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dragorossinw
WW Industry
Joined: 31 Aug 2007
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Posts: 544
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Posted: 15 Jun 2010 at 12:25pm |
The all and all of this comes down to liability. When the authorities are called for specialized skills, they can't have civilians assisting, no matter what their skill level is. Police, Fire, EMS, SAR, Ect. can not take the chance once they are on scene of letting the public get physicly involved. That person who so badly wants to help may have more skills than the responding agency, but if that person gets injured physicly assisting the agency in ANY way, its that agency's ass that hangs out to dry.
Information is the BEST thing you can give as soon as an agency arrives, but never hands on help. I would not take a 20 year veteran Marine Core sniper into a house with an armed baracaded subject, nor would I let a doctor with 20 years experiance work on my car accident victim, or a private agency wildlands fire expert enter a burning building as soon as I am on the scene, god knows they may have more skill than I, but I don't know that and can not take the chance of them getting hurt or inadvertantly making things worse.
It boils down to liability, period. Its not that agencys woudln't love any help thay can get, but in todays age of law suits, ambulance chacers, and deep pockets, they never know someones TRUE level of skill or experience and can't take a chance. It should be no different on a serch or a rescue or a recovery, fire or crime scene, etc , etc. Give the agency the BEST Information you can to assist in their decisions and step back, its not a shot to your skill, intellagence, experiance, or what have you, its just a matter of liability.
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Tony Z
dragorossinorthwest@yahoo.com
www.nookiekayaking.us
www.dragorossi.com
www.donkeyfIip.com
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dave
Master Poster
D4
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
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Posted: 16 Jun 2010 at 8:45am |
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I kayaked Clear Creek for a year while I lived there. I could argue the point about it being classed a river. Maybe it could be classed a hybrid between creek and river. Maybe that is why so many rafters die on that water, because they think it is a river? You better have some game if your a rafter on that creek.
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Nomad
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