Ernie's Gorge
Printed From: ProfessorPaddle.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Whitewater Forum
Forum Discription: Open Discussion Forum. Whitewater related subjects only
URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10489
Printed Date: 12 Jun 2024 at 5:06pm
Topic: Ernie's Gorge
Posted By: chipmaney
Subject: Ernie's Gorge
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2011 at 9:56am
|
A friend who was on the 1st descent of Ernie's pointed me out to this http://americanwhitewater.org/content/Journal/browse/year/1996/ - article in the Mar-Apr 1996 American Whitewater Journal that contains names of both people and major rapids. I recognize some of the names, but I have never done the run so am not sure whether all the names mentioned are still in use..... Interesting read.... I note that the author calls it "Ernie's Canyon", but the 1st descender continues to insist the original name is Ernie's Gorge. ------------- sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end |
Replies:
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2011 at 10:38am
|
I wonder if Sir Edmund Hillary wanted it to be called Mount Hillary . The step might have been a fall back plan. |
Posted By: WA-Boater
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 12:21pm
|
How about a link to the article...is there one? Thanks ------------- |
Posted By: chipmaney
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 12:28pm
|
click on the work "article"
------------- sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end |
Posted By: WA-Boater
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 12:30pm
|
thanks
------------- |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 12:54pm
|
Dude is your buddy Pete Flanagan? If so that guy deserves to own the whole forest up there. 1700cfs run, no portage run, first D on Jacuzzi? That is amazing!!! |
Posted By: fiddleyak
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 1:10pm
|
It's a really cool article, one the rare snapshots we have that documents this river in it's early days. I disagree that we should change the name to "Gorge". Everyone uses "Canyon", and if your friend could not even convince his contemporaries to use "Gorge" than why should we switch it at this late date? Hardly any of the rapids are called by their original names (most remain unnamed as far as I know). The main reason is because the majority of the rapids have all changed radically over the last ten years. I cannot recognize a single rapid in the article or by it's description; the one exception being Raftcatch. It would be cool if you had your friend go through pictures of rapids in their current state (on this site and others) and tell us the historical names. Fact is there is very little record of what these names are because this early generation didn't feel the need to share with everyone the way we do today. ------------- |
Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 2:28pm
| That is a great article.... I think I still have that magazine laying around somewhere. Need to drag that out. |
Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 2:29pm
|
Originally posted by James Dude is your buddy Pete Flanagan? If so that guy deserves to own the whole forest up there. 1700cfs run, no portage run, first D on Jacuzzi? That is amazing!!! ....and they didn't have the creekboats as we now know them either. |
Posted By: BRoss
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 3:52pm
|
Thanks for the link Chip. That is a cool article. That whole issue is cool!! Those highwater Potomac stories are legendary. ------------- "That boated a lot better than it looked." "It always does until it doesn't." |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 8:31pm
|
Pretty sick read. ------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: irenen
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2011 at 8:53pm
|
Awesome article, thanks for posting Chip! ------------- It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle. |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 11:04am
|
Originally posted by fiddleyak
The main reason is because the majority of the rapids have all changed radically over the last ten years. I cannot recognize a single rapid in the article or by it's description; the one exception being Raftcatch. And from the picture and description it looks like their line on Raft Catch is in River Left. Theres nothing but a wall on River Right. ------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: chipmaney
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 11:58am
|
Actually, that's Raft Cache. Cuz on the 1st D someone had stashed a raft high up on the bank. On the 2nd D a week later, the raft was gone....
------------- sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end |
Posted By: chipmaney
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 12:01pm
|
Originally posted by JoesKayak Originally posted by James Dude is your buddy Pete Flanagan? If so that guy deserves to own the whole forest up there. 1700cfs run, no portage run, first D on Jacuzzi? That is amazing!!! ....and they didn't have the creekboats as we now know them either. Apparently the first person to run Jacuzzi was some hot-shot from the east coast....that must be Pete Flannagan. Also, the gauge may have been different back then, so it's hard to say what 1700 cfs really means.... ------------- sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end |
Posted By: JD_G
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 7:47pm
|
What does 1700 cfs mean? It means it was huge, and that Pete and Rick were pretty exceptional. In the early 2000's there was a crew from Portland that would consistently make a day trip for Ernies, when it was between 900 to 1,000. I believe a couple of them pushed it to 1,200. They were a super solid group, but were still amazed by the earlier crew's high water mark. Something to ponder, when most runs today are at less than 500. I've only run it a half dozen times between 500 - 700, and found that to be enough. |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2011 at 7:28am
| Chip considering the date on which this gauge was installed and the location it was put in it is doubtful that much has changed. Could different by a few cfs, sure maybe even a hundred but that does not mean much other than the fact that Pete was a badass boater the likes of which you don't see often at all. The first decsenders were great too but I would not really compare folks that log 10 + portages to folks that turn around and run the thing without a single one. I would not exactly call it being a hotshot either, perhaps "hardcore". Just like I would not call Ben or Jp hotshots, although they are great boaters they never pull stuff off like stuntmen for a camera clip. They just boat with skill. |
Posted By: jalmquist
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2011 at 7:46am
| I remember a Carbon run from years ago where Pete was supposed to join us. He called saying he couldn't make it, so we went without him. When we got off the run, we had a note on our windshield from Pete saying he had freed up and to not run shuttle without him. He was soloing the run behind us and wanted to hitch a ride with us back up to get his car... |
Posted By: chipmaney
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2011 at 8:46am
|
Originally posted by James Chip considering the date on which this gauge was installed and the location it was put in it is doubtful that much has changed. Could different by a few cfs, sure maybe even a hundred but that does not mean much other than the fact that Pete was a badass boater the likes of which you don't see often at all. The first decsenders were great too but I would not really compare folks that log 10 + portages to folks that turn around and run the thing without a single one. I would not exactly call it being a hotshot either, perhaps "hardcore". Just like I would not call Ben or Jp hotshots, although they are great boaters they never pull stuff off like stuntmen for a camera clip. They just boat with skill. Yeah, if the gauge hasn't changed, then 1700 is bad ass..... In terms of 'coreness, I think it's all relative....sure, we can question the number of portages on the first descent (which I am sure was greatly reduced on future trips) and say they are not bad-ass like Pete, but I have never run Ernie's and may never, so to me they're all bad-asses. I agree that should not detract from Pete being on a totally different level...I mean, nobody runs Jacuzzi now, so clearly that says something about Pete. Some people may think I am beating this to death. I don't really care if the rapid names change back to the original or not. Instead, I just like to honor the pioneers, and I find it an interesting historical exercise that is fun to talk about. At the least, it has boiled the blood of some of the pioneers, who have enjoyed looking back through their write-ups and other historical information. So thanks to all those who have contributed to the conversation. ------------- sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end |
Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2011 at 8:51am
| 700 is a pretty good amount of water in there. 1700 is 1000 more than 700, obviously. I woudn't get on Ernies at 1000. Regardless of the gauge differences, 1700 cfs is Robe at around 6 to 6.2. Any of you boating robe at 6 feet these days? Think about that. The dude was a total badass and no one has matched that since. In my opinion, this is probably approaching something like the NF of the Payette at 6,000 or higher. |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2011 at 9:49am
|
Chip; yea I am not trying to detract from the pioneers either. The feeling of going down a run with no beta and exploring it first time is much different than logging record highwater runs or plucking off portages. The more you become familiar with a run the easier it is to step it up and bite off bigger chunks so that first D mission is rarely the most epic of all trips recorded on a run. I like the discussion though, it is great to hear about local legends that are no longer on the daily radar, hear about the skill and ability that existed long before our fancy elbow pads and creekboats. The discussion of rapid names and run names is an interesting one that I would say dances on the line of common reference and first exploration. Sometimes they are the same and other times they are not. What makes that change is a myriad (love that word by the way) of variables. My example is the biscuit on the Sky. I know that rapid has another name, but I just don't care what it is, I will always call it butter'n the biscuit even though the move is gone. I grew so fond of slicin off a pad and greasing that little slab up I will just always remember it as such. 20 footer on Robe, Don't care that people call it 20 footer, I will agree that is the historical name but I recall a run when Rob kept calling it the Cats Paw, he would stroke his paddle and meow over and over, I laughed so hard that run that I always have had fun callin it the same. Names perhaps should best be understood as a way to engage memory or reference to something. When i am chatting with Dave about Robe I call that last rapid Spinal Tap, but if I were talking to the dufster I might call it Miracle Fabric. What name is correct depends on who your talking too. Again just my own thoughts and I am sure many will disagree but thats how I like it. |
Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2011 at 9:57am
|
Originally posted by James
My example is the biscuit on the Sky. I know that rapid has another name, but I just don't care what it is, I will always call it butter'n the biscuit even though the move is gone. I grew so fond of slicin off a pad and greasing that little slab up I will just always remember it as such. James, it's called Butter The Biscuit and it's still there on the Sky. I still butter that thing up every so often.  ------------- "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2011 at 10:15am
| I know it is still there but it is not quite as greasy as it once was. I would say now it is more like smearing on some butter that has been in the fridge and is cold and it tears up your bread, where as it used to be like lathering butter on from a hot KFC packet that was sitting on your dashboard in the sun! |
Posted By: WA-Boater
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2011 at 10:18am
|
Not trying to stir the pot or anything, just giving a shout out to some other not so old 'old schoolers'. Guys like Brock Gavery, John Minerich (Utah), Shane Robinson and crew were firing off Jacuzzi not to long back (2002-2005). It seems the 'core' class 5 crews around here cycle through pretty fast (2-3 seasons) and a lot of guys don't have the reps to learn runs well enough to push the envelope. It's incredible to hear that ernies was done at 1700. I figured they were using a different guage or something. Wow. ------------- |
Posted By: xanthopb
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2011 at 11:33am
|
Originally posted by James When i am chatting with Dave about Robe I call that last rapid Spinal Tap, but if I were talking to the dufster I might call it Miracle Fabric. I call that rapid Dave's rapid and you're not done with the hard stuff until you get through that little gem. -Brad ------------- O-Qua Tangin Wann |
Posted By: Kyle K
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2011 at 11:06pm
|
I may get fried for this but back in the old days (I was only an observer as a raft guide) it seems they used to run stuff routinely at much higher flows. I should qaulify that I'm talking about CA here as I was down there and not in WA. If you read the California Guide by Stanley and Holbeck you'll notice that their recommendations for run levels are typically much higher than folks run them these days. Maybe the longer boats of yore punched through holes better, or rolled better or maybe they just didn't like rocks. Whatever, there are some pretty cool high water runs from the old days that seem pretty scary compared to the average levels things get run now. Again, I'm talking CA.
Of course there are some hard chargers that are pushing the high water limits today too so I'm not trying to say the old guys were better. Think about Rob, et al, running Tumwater at super high levels (in his Kingpin!). And of course the NF Payette crew last year. Amazing stuff that I don't imagine I'd ever have the huevos to do. ------------- "I used to be somebody, now I'm somebody else." Bad Blake |
Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2011 at 11:27am
|
Yeah, I'll check out that old article eventually- don't have great internet access as you know.
Gorge or Canyon is kind of a "Potato/ Pototo if ya get my drift.
Let's call the whole thing OFF!! (just kiddin- that's a song, you know)
But regardless: Too late- I already changed the name to "Ernie's Gorge" on the river description page, not that I care all that much. I do know Jim, though, and he told me that it should be "gorge" . That's good enough for me.
really though, I gotta bigger fish to fry- like bust'n people's balls 'cause they don't know how to maintain fires (when staying warm is important in the winter) or run shuttle in a way that makes life easy instead of hard, ect.
still, whatever happens, you know I love ya all (well, kinda  )------------- 🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋 |
Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2011 at 7:55pm
|
Originally posted by jP still, whatever happens, you know I love ya all (well, kinda )jP, we 'kinda' love you, too. kinda  ------------- "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman |