Sea Kayak rudder or no rudder?
Printed From: ProfessorPaddle.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Chit Chat
Forum Discription: Non Boating Related Discussions
URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10133
Printed Date: 25 Apr 2024 at 4:32pm
Topic: Sea Kayak rudder or no rudder?
Posted By: dave
Subject: Sea Kayak rudder or no rudder?
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2010 at 8:07pm
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After much research and discussion I thought I would post this for you non-believers! ALL the Olympic and world class racers use a rudder. Read this from the manufacture of the fastest sea kayaks on earth, Epic.All top flatwater paddlers and open ‐ocean racers use rudders, as they have proven time and time again in competition to be more efficient than a skeg or going without a rudder. Olympic sprint races are held on a straight course in calm water and rudders are optional. However, you would be hard‐pressed to find anyone paddling without a rudder in high‐level competitions. They know that the fastest way to paddle is to put maximum focus on an efficient forward stroke and let the rudder ensure they are traveling in a straight line. In the same way, engineers have found it much more efficient to use a rudder on an airplane, rather than attempt to turn the engines for directional control. Concern over drag is no reason not to use a rudder. Read it and weep, non-rudder users!------------- Nomad |
Replies:
Posted By: Courtney
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2010 at 7:57am
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I just face it. You're still a wuss and so are all of those racers. ;-)
Courtney
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Posted By: Shaun
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2010 at 6:33pm
| I thought this was common sense. There are people who really think it is faster or more efficient to not have a rudder? I race surfskis, and I couldn't imagine not having a rudder on one. |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2010 at 6:45pm
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Yes, I have gotten into long discussions with many people on this site that think that no rudder is better! They are stuck in the past.... ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: Courtney
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2010 at 10:04pm
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On a more serious note, what I've gotten out of it is that if you're trying to go in a stright line, rudders are great. If you not and just out sea kayaking around people think it's better to know how to turn the kayak on your own and guide it on your own rather than relying on the rudder to do it for you. I can see both points of view. To me, I don't care, to each his own.
Courtney
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Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2010 at 11:24pm
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That is what a rudder is for, to go straight and concentrate your energy on the forward stroke. If you want to turn, you still edge the boat and use your paddle strokes to turn.
That is the comman misconception about rudders, they are not for turning, they are for going straight. ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: Courtney
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 6:06am
Posted By: Jimmy
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 6:08am
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Originally posted by dave
That is what a rudder is for, to go straight So what are you saying, only gay people should use rudders? That's a little narrow minded don't you think?
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Posted By: Courtney
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 8:58am
| If they weren't made to help you turn then why else would they make them turn from side to side?. |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 9:10am
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Originally posted by Courtney If they weren't made to help you turn then why else would they make them turn from side to side?. To make adjustments so you can keep the boat going straight when your strokes are unprecise and sloppy. Or if you are drunk, one handed, or can only paddle on one side.  |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 2:53pm
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You guys are starting to give me a headache. ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: Jed Hawkes
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 6:27pm
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In windy conditions during long crossings the rudder has it's place. But kayaks existed for hundreds (arguably thousands) of years before the advent of the rudder so I feel that the native people had something going for them. They also never used anything but a greenland style paddle, a style which exists merely on the fringe of seakayaking. But like I said the Rudder has it's PLACE in paddling, not a permanent fixture. Using the rudder is like training wheels, if you never take the training wheels off you'll never learn to ride without them. ------------- The line will become apparent 978-273-7723 |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 7:43pm
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Then why do Olympic Racers use rudders. They definitely don't need training wheels and have perfect paddle strokes. You don't make the Olympics unless you have a perfect paddle stroke.
If we assumed your logic was sound, cars would still have manual steering, airplanes would not have rudders, TV would still be using tubes...Rudders for kayaks are just natural evolution in efficiency, technology and getting the most out of your energy.
I would never paddle a sea kayak without one because I want to concentrate my energy on going straight. WW kayaks of course do not have rudders because you need to turn a lot.
Read this article by Epic (the undisputed leader in fast kayak manufacturing)
http://www.epickayaks.com/extras/tips/equipment/rudders - http://www.epickayaks.com/extras/tips/equipment/rudders ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: Jed Hawkes
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 8:43pm
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I'm not saying YOU shouldn't use a rudder, I'm just saying why I don't all the time. Like I said they have their place in the sport. This isn't a personal attack on your paddling, just a discussion about kayaking. ------------- The line will become apparent 978-273-7723 |
Posted By: Jimmy
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 8:59pm
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My boat has a skeg on it which works out pretty well for crossings, then I pull it up when hugging the shore. I don't like the way I can't push my feet against something when I roll in a kayak with a rudder. If I paddled a sea kayak a lot I might change my mind.
Jimmy
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Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 9:46pm
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I have had 3 different sea kayaks in the past 15 years, with skeg (sucked) without rudder or skeg (was ok for close to shore and short crossings) with rudder (totally awsome, especially when you can just raise it out of the way when needed). I just learned when we did an 80 mile trip in 4 days that the guys without the rudders were all over the place and I was tracking straight and true. I have an Epic 18x sport coming with thier new rudder (trackmaster plus) and I am looking forward to having a very fast sea kayak (and only 42 lbs) and putting the Easy Rider to the side (for guests) or selling it. We will see who is left behind next summer hehehehe....It wont be me this time! Look out all you Greenlander rudderless people...------------- Nomad |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2010 at 9:50pm
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The Greenlander guys were faster during the trip, but I was paddling an Easy Rider slow boat too. This wont happen with the Epic... ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: Courtney
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2010 at 8:15am
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Dave just face it, as I said before you're a wussy. ;-) Seriously, what's the big deal? Is a racer uses a rudder to hold a line, great. If a beginner or someone needing a little help stearing uses one, great. Again, to each his own. The point is to go out and have fun.
Courtney
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Posted By: James
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2010 at 3:26pm
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I agree courtney. I Think the issue is that Dave gets upset when he knows he is using bunk gear. There is nothing wrong with using a car with an automatic transmission. I personally prefer a manual for personal reasons but hey what is the big deal. Use what you like. Dave if you need help keeping the boat straight, and since you are in the back all the time use a rudder .. nothing wrong with that. It will help when your racing too, at least that is what the survey says. For me, I will skeg so I can surf and feel nimble whilst turning my head to make sure Dave is ok back there..  |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2010 at 7:29pm
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James, I did not know your van had a manual transmition. That is totaly cool, is it a three on the tree? ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2010 at 8:13pm
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http://www.epickayaks.com/products/touringkayaks/18x-sport - http://www.epickayaks.com/products/touringkayaks/18x-sport This is my new boat! Except mine will be all white. It comes with a Track Master PLUS rudder system. The fin that sticks out below the integrated rudder retracts, then when retracted it locks the rudder in place so it acts like a skeg or a boat with no rudder! Because the rudder is actually part of the hull form, when it is locked into place it is like you have no rudder or a skeg. Epic has really designed their boats well.
I guess that is why the Olympic racers use them...
When I get it I will race anyone with a skeg or Greenlander style boat to prove my point. I will get the coffee going when I reach the finish line and wait for you... ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2010 at 8:37pm
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Along with the manual transmition (three on the tree) in your van James, you could install one of these too...  You may need this after I kick your ass with my new boat and rudder and you drown your sorrows with that fancy whiskey you have. ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: KBfree
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2010 at 8:52pm
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As a rudderless kayaker I have only a few observation. The first would be the intent and design of the kayak hull would most likely dictate whether a rudder is used. I have a wine glass hull that tracks very well...even in big waves. The only time it becomes noticable is with a quartering wind or a cross current. And although a rudder may be more efficient when paddling, I feel that by not having one, I'm more engaged in the paddling experience. I've incorporated better sense of contol with my paddling and balance. I use a slight draw when I finish the stroke for corrections or I wiill lean on an edge longer to help track. Efficiency may be the goal, but I have been able to develope ta echnique that directly translates into whitewater that has made me a better kayaker.
Dave... you might like the rudder clutter but I've enjoyed being connected to the water, boat and the elements. I'll race you anytime..... How about the Deception Pass Dash?!
http://deceptionpassdash.blogspot.com/ - http://deceptionpassdash.blogspot.com/
http://deceptionpassdash.blogspot.com/ - http://deceptionpassdash.blogspot.com/
------------- Kirk B |
Posted By: KBfree
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2010 at 9:01pm
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http://www.outdooradventurecenter.com/40227/Deception-Pass-Dash.html - http://www.outdooradventurecenter.com/40227/Deception-Pass-Dash.html
Go here Dave..... ------------- Kirk B |
Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2010 at 9:01pm
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I've carefully read this thread and examined the specs on the boat you posted. What I can't seem to find are the attachment points for the fishing rods on this boat? Where are they? Does the rudder interfere with landing the big one or does Epic have some trick system for that as well? Deborah wants to know where the drink holder is as well as the best place to store chocolate chip cookies - would that be in the front hatch or is the rear hatch the only one that is refrigerated? ------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address) |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2010 at 9:46pm
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Kirk, my boat wont be coming until February 2011, but I am all in to race with you Kirk. I know you may kick my ass, but I will train to try and keep up with you.
Arno, I am having Epic build in a special hatch to transport Deborah's delicious chocolate chip cookies. So, no worries about that, go ahead and get the production started on the cookies and I will take good care of them. ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: Travisimo
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2010 at 12:21am
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Don't challenge me to a race, I'll do this! Have you seen my bicycle? Who says motors are weak? Wanna race me on my Huffy??? http://1046.photobucket.com/albums/b464/ohane1/bicycle/PB250415.jpg - http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/b464/ohane1/bicycle/PB250415.jpg - http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/b464/ohane1/bicycle/PB250415.jpg http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/b464/ohane1/bicycle/Travis086.jpg - http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/b464/ohane1/bicycle/Travis086.jpg ------------- H2O please |
Posted By: Courtney
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2010 at 6:50am
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I wonder what happens when he flips? I wonder if the motor cuts off or not? Anyone know? I'd hate to get dragged upsidedown. Otherwise it looks like fun! Courtney
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Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2010 at 2:42pm
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Dave- I think it is really awesome that you are finally talking about something meaningful (read: related to kayaking) on this site. But I don't understand why EVERY post of yours on this thread is in the "Shouting" font size. Certainly when you concieved this thread topic I was one of the people whose hackles you imagined you'd raise. But no, 'ol jP here is as cool as a cucumber in the face of your large-font onslaught  I welcome your topic and even see where you are coming from,though I still disagree, Olympic endorsements or no. It's good because people around here can learn stuff from this discussion. But I agree with Courtney: it's all about what you like (and you are a wussi  )I REALLY would like to echo Kirk's comments: I've always felt that rudders are obtrusive to my paddling experience. They dull the sensation of what the balls of my feet, my toes, and my heels are doing. Believe me: after countless days racing my fellow paddling buddies on the Robe Canyon flatwater at the end, I've really fine tuned what my feet, knees, and hips are doing to the point where my paddle is freed up to soley power me forward. Yeah, I'm no Olympic caliber racer, Maybe if I had an olympic caliber stroke and practiced using a rudder, I'd find the virtue in it the same way those top athletes do. But I'm sure Obi Wan Kenobi would want me to "use the force" and "let go" of such silly contraptions. a fine tuned sense of edge control, like Kirk says, is all I need. Arn-your post was funny in that clever sort of way. Kayaks with rudders just have too much hardware for me. I find it annoying. A skeg on the other hand, subtely alters the shape of my hull. That's all I need. ------------- 🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋 |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2010 at 6:22pm
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Well, regarding the font: Even though I look and act like I am really young, I am getting old, so, my eyes just don't work like they used to. So, I use larger font so I can see what I am typing. Young folks like you JP can see that small font...
I agree with Kirk too, and I like paddling with him too. He is a great guy and fun to paddle with and has a great philosophy about paddling and the stroke. Basically to each his own regarding the rudder. I just started this post to get more input regarding the rudder and start some good controversial discussion.
The really fast racing boats with rudders come with a big sacrifice though, that is stability and room for packing stuff. But, I am looking forward to getting one soon and be able to zoom around everyone instead of them zooming around me... ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2010 at 7:53pm
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right on- sorry for my misunderstanding, Dave. And before long I'll prolly be sport'n the big font as well...
good topic, though dude- thanks ------------- 🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋 |
Posted By: dblanchard
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2010 at 8:23pm
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I sympathize with the font sizing issues. Try holding down the control key and tapping your plus key a few times. This will make all the text as large as you want, and then when you are done, i.e. wish to see more of the page at once, zoom out using control-minus.
Happy reading/writing, D |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2010 at 9:00pm
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Dave does that and when I go to look at the Internet on the TV there is giant letters. We have a laptop hooked up to the big screen so we can couch surf... Ohh, my head hurts from headbanging all the time....METAL....------------- Nomad |