Downward Spiral?
Printed From: ProfessorPaddle.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Chit Chat
Forum Discription: Non Boating Related Discussions
URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10225
Printed Date: 22 May 2024 at 4:07am
Topic: Downward Spiral?
Posted By: dave
Subject: Downward Spiral?
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 9:17am
I was doing some studies on PP about user and trip posting trends and found these interesting graph charts. I have notice that trip posting has had a big decline lately and my suspicions are looking correct.
  ------------- Nomad |
Replies:
Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 10:04am
| Well, Dave I've been on THE RIVER and fortunately the numbers are up out there. Put down the meth pipe, pick up your paddle and join us, please. |
Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 10:29am
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It's a natural cycle... Professor paddle is created. Boaters come to it and start posting trips and boating together PP gets more popular and more trips happen Boaters get to know each other from PP trips and start communicating off-board and planning trips within their new groups of friends rather than thru PP trip planner Trip planner use goes down People boat with the same people too much, get sick of them, get into arguments and eventually have no friends left... And the cycle repeats. So as I see it, it's time for a new upswing.  |
Posted By: chipmaney
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 10:39am
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a agree with joe. despite the dearth of trip postings, i hypothesize that use of the forum in terms of both user diversity and posting quality (subjective) have both increased over the last, say, 6 months....
------------- sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 10:55am
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Originally posted by water wacko
Well, Dave I've been on THE RIVER and fortunately the numbers are up out there. Put down the meth pipe, pick up your paddle and join us, please. Actually, I did not say river trips are down, just trip posting. People are using face book, texting, and email more than PP lately.
I think one of the main reasons of decline is that PP is difficult to use with mobile devices and you have to be logged in to actually look at a trip. This turns a lot of people off to the use of PP, as it is not convenient or fast to check while on the go.
Our society, especially people that have busy jobs, are constantly on the move and need quick access to information to make their free time more productive.
Also, I do not use Meth and never have. I don't understand why posting facts or some controversial subject on this website draws so many negative responses? ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 11:01am
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------------- Nomad |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 12:04pm
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Dave: I am responding only for one reason. The last time you proxy posted I let you know I did not want you to post trips/phone numbers for other people because if they want that information on the internet they can do it themselves. I am going to make this really simple. Leif can post his own messages. He left by choice, and he makes his own decisions, stop posting his little schemes. Here are some charts he has posted in the past. And I would like you too try and remember what peoples responses were then...... No one really cared and it seems like folks still don't. Since he won't return my calls let your buddy know that if he wants to post this crap he should man up and do it, stop using your friends like a kid in elementary school. Graphs and Charts from the Chart Master     |
Posted By: huckin harms
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 12:35pm
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Dave, I don't see your point in this... are you saying that Professor Paddle as a forum is in decline and becoming obsolete or is it just the lack of trips posted that has you concerned? As pointed out, PP is no guage of boater activity, so the lack of 'trips' posted on PP isn't reflection of paddlers getting out. I think Joe is pretty spot on with the cyclic nature of things ... esp with this recession they got going on.
I am not going to justify the merits of this forum. We all know what they are. YOU get to choose what to take advantage of, and what to leave alone.... it's just a resource made available to you at your discretion. If you don't like it... then it's adios.
------------- |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 12:49pm
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If you read my post carefully, you will see that I am not bashing PP, I am just stating that it needs to be updated with my suggestions so we can use it more efficiently. WOW, things get twisted so easily on this forum....by the way James why don't you give me credit for my work? I actually spent some time making these graph charts on excel with a spreadsheet Leif gave me.
I am smarter than you think. I have asked that the forum be changed in the past and you always said no, I am just trying to make a case for it to be changed.
We need to be able to view posts and trips without logging in on our portable devices.
Thank you for your time and patients. ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: Wiggins
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 2:41pm
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James isn't the only one who saw this post and thought he smelled Leif all over it.
I remembered the post from last year and more recent conversations I have had with Leif, and I shared James' suspicions (and I am generally a Leif defender).
The most common reason I hear for why people do not post trips is because anyone can show up and they don't want beginners showing up because they don't want to have to rescue them. I have found it amusing how often I hear this excuse refering to class III runs from people who first ran said run on a trip I led and posted on Professor Paddle!
Personally I think the website has nothing to do with a lack of participation on the website. I think it is a relative lack of new paddlers. Most of us have our own networks offsite that we can use to get a trip together. Typically the trips get posted when new people become involved with the site, and that just hasn't happened as often lately.
My response to any complaint that there are a lack of trips being posted on PP is that the people complaining should start posting their trips. In my experience the people who complain about the lack of trips are generally the same people who rarely, if ever, post trips.
Seems to me this is a easily fixable "problem."
Kyle ------------- I smell bacon |
Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 4:31pm
Brian, you have more important work now, anyway. 
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Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 5:58pm
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WOW, again, I made the charts not Leif!
He gave me the tools to do the work and I did the work. I was just using the tools to make a point that we need to make some changes to keep up with the times. Simple, no secret conspiracy or master plan. WOW, WOW WOW....
I have a problem reading long winded posts, so sorry if I did not read the previous posts. Since you are now editing the WRRR article Brian, I thought you would know by know to keep it short and simple. ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 6:03pm
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Ok, I read the posts. I have tried to implement change. But, James said no. I would post trips if I could access them without having to log onto my blackberry when just going to view them real quick while driving. It is a huge pain in the butt to log on when using a mobile device. Again, WOW....
<------am I going to lose my hair if I keep banging my head like this???? ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: windwaves
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 7:37pm
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I'm just a frequent lurker, and don't have a single graph support my opinion, but I'd say the number of trips posted is most definitely down... but there seems to be more people on the river all the time. So what? Well, I'd just like to thank the folks who do still take the time to post trips. Every once in a while I'm able to join one and I've always met great people willing to share with someone new to a run.... it's a great way for someone to get out with a group outside the usual "gang" or on a river they have never run. I'd also like to encourage others to post more often if you're going to be on a trip where you could stand some outsiders to your usual group, or have the time to show a first-timer the lines, or maybe even rescuing a beginner. Seems like that's a big part of what this community is about! |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 8:21pm
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Is it just me or does this whole issue very clearly seem like US politics?
big banks = leif politicians = dave you = screwed first you say you found the charts then you complain that i did not give you credit for making them. then you say you made the charts with leifs speadsheets... dude this is lame. You want change try starting at home base. This is what is screwing up the site not some functionality issue. |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 9:23pm
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See, no matter how I present the issue of not being able to view trips without logging in you always shoot me down. I have tried over the years, this was just another try...oh well...
<------Oh my head----make it stop! ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: Blair
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 9:52pm
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Dave, I think if you remove your 2 bottom ribs, you'll be able to accomplish what your head banger has been trying to do repeatedly but failing... ------------- |
Posted By: MikeV
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 10:24pm
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I definitely don't know the politics behind all of the responses to dave's post, but I've been thinking the same for the past few years. When I started boating again about 10 years ago (after about 10 years off) you could usually get 2-4 trips a month through WKC. Like Wiggins said, going on trips allowed you to hook up with new paddlers and get a network going. After a few WKC trips I had a group that I could get on the river with sometimes 3 or more times a week. Still, there was usually a WKC trip going on the weekends, and a lot of us ended up leading many of these trips, partly because we wanted to give back. Then WKC took a turn that killed it for me. Requiring an ACA membership, having to fill out more paperwork than my frickin' mortgage to go on every single trip, and having to pay the club and the ACA just pushed me over the edge. I got into kayaking for many reasons, one was the sense of community among paddlers. It used to be that if you saw someone with a boat on the top of their car you gave them a wave. Sometimes you'd meet them on the river and go out for a beer and some Mexican food after. It was tight. I definitely didn't get into kayaking for paperwork or to protect the "club" from a lawsuit. Then along came professor paddle. I don't know if James picked up on the same vibe I had, but this site was an anecdote for me. It got back to what I loved about paddling. Someone wanted to hit the river, posted a message and the trip was on. I got out on some great trips with some cool people. If you wanted to know if someone was up for a run, you asked them. If someone was going to swim, it was probably going to be on a class III run or below, so not a big deal to me, just fish in their stuff, and get back on the river. Part of PP was an acknowledgment that we all shared a love of paddling, and getting out with some new folks was part of the fun. Then I had a couple of kids and more demanding job, and so for the past 4-5 years, my boating dropped from 2-3 times/week to 4-5 times/year. All of the people I paddled with moved on. The difference now is that it's a real challenge to find a group to hook up with on the fly when I get one of those rare weekends when I can actually get out. Years ago I could get a WKC trip, after that a PP trip, now it's a tough. I definitely hear the worry about having someone join a trip when you don't know about their paddling skill (or if they're a total nut job). But, I think we've lost that sense of a kayaking community that we used to have here in the NW - it didn't take long before you knew most of the people out on the river. Some were out everyday, some you'd see every few months. Sure it's fun to hit a river with your buds. But, it's also cool to get out with some new people, maybe see the river through another set of eyes, hear a story of an epic trip. Pretty soon, you were part of a larger connected group. Almost seems like a reflection of our times that people are becoming more insular. I think we're losing something that elevated kayaking above so many of the other sports we can enjoy here in the NW. Maybe I'm totally off, and it's just a cycle. Or maybe it's not safe to post a trip. As I read my post, maybe I'm just getting to be a cranky old man! I think I'll go take a nap now. |
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 10:31pm
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Anyone mind if I delete this thread?
------------- Sure? |
Posted By: Travisimo
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 10:49pm
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Ahhh controversy. We have some, but really I don't think it detracts as much as most seem to think. The real question is: Does anybody that wants to join a trip get skunked by the lack of posted trips. I think if it was happening, that we'd see somebody post about it. I think this site is awesome and was a GREAT way for me to meet people I never would have met before. Thanks again for this site James, and I personally like the fact that we have so many different personalities here, it keeps it interesting. ------------- H2O please |
Posted By: djohnson
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 11:04pm
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I mind if you delete the thread.
This Dave dude brings up some good points and useful data. I am relatively new to this site, but I have been told the stories of years ago when several trips were posted every weekend. Wow, that would be nice! This is a healthy discussion - don't try to sweep it under the rug. Oh - and why does everyone keep harassing this Leif dude? Saw it in another thread too. Maybe this is why fewer people use this sight; maybe they feel unwelcome. |
Posted By: huckin harms
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 7:42am
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dude dj.... love that avatar! So, let me see if I got this straight. Dave is lobbying for a more 'efficient' way to post or check on posted trips. The 'log-in' is a time eating inconvience- got no patience for that sort of thing. Is that right? Second, this state has an abundance of moving water, but the deal is most of it seems to fall in two distinct catagories: Novice to intermediate and advanced to expert. Very little middle ground. So maybe part of the lack of posting for trips is that many folks who paddle the advanced to expert rivers don't post up for the many reasons already shared. It would be 'nice' to see more trips posted for folks who are getting on classIII rivers but that is really up to individual community members. There was a time when Jeff Bowman and others stepped up and posted regular trips out to the Sky. But I can easily understand why folks who used too don't anymore... its some level of responsibility and maybe because they are already 'connected', . At anyrate, whatever it takes to promote the trip ticker is cool, but I don't think that can happen sans log-in. Can we make the avatar a scratch and sniff :)
------------- |
Posted By: Kiran
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 9:16am
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Very interesting thread for a "member" who has unfortunately been very inactive. Kyle: I think we met while I was scouting FITW and you were driving back from Wenatchee about 2 years ago! Each time I read the forums there is SOME controversy starring this guy "Leif". Who is HE? ;-) First off, while I have been in Seattle for almost 3 years, in these three years my paddling has dropped from a average 30 days a year to 3-5 days a year. My paddling in the PNW has totaled about 6-8 days of which a majority have been solo paddles. However, I used to be very very active a paddler in CA and the local forum (GCP) I know I rarely posted trips out there after the first few years: In the beginning I paddled a lot of Class III and posted trips and took newbies down and had a lot of fun. Then I started to paddle a lot more Class IV / Class IV+ / Class V-. I posted a few trips and found myself the strongest paddler on stuff that was at my limit. Not cool! As I paddled harder stuff, I found paddling partners (usually one or two only) off line and stopped posting. I think most paddlers go thru this transition. Anyways, I am back to being a Class III paddler (if at that) due to lack of water time. Guess I should be paddling rather than posting here. If the MM running? Maybe someone wants to warm up in the easy club run ? :-) |
Posted By: GHannam
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 12:46pm
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Kiran:
Sorry to hear that you're only getting on the river 3-5 days a year, but people go through all kinds of phases/transitions in life; priorities change and we all experience it in different ways. 
If you're interested in getting out on the river more often, it's really just about getting back into the community. Once you get on someone's mailing list or become familiar with people who paddle regularly, it's really easy to find people to get out with (most of the time). If you haven't already, I'd suggest hitting up some pool sessions to meet people, subscribing to SeattleKayaker (a yahoo e-mailing list), or just post an inquiry-- I'm sure people will respond! I paddle anything from class II+ to IV on most weekends and the occasional weekday (now that we're reaching the Winter Solstice & there isn't as much daylight). There are a few of us hitting up the Sky tomorrow if you want to join (BD is easily portaged, if you haven't done so before). Best of luck to you! |
Posted By: GHannam
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 1:11pm
| P.S. Why don't you join us for the Monthly Whitewater Movie Nights? We just started them this Fall and have them at AquaSports in Redmond, WA every 2nd Tuesday of the month at 7pm. Feel free to bring your wife, kids, friends, significant others, or whomever! It's a great place to meet people and enjoy an evening of whitewater movies. Snacks provided; BYOB. The next one will be on 14 December. |
Posted By: Wiggins
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 3:15pm
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Dave I will have to disagree that it is inconvenient to post trips from a mobile device. If you link the e-mail you use with you PP account to your smart phone the only time you have to log on is when you post the trip. I get e-mails telling me when people join or leave the trip, and when people post something on the trip discussion (it also includes their post in the e-mail). I don't have to be logged in to check the gauges either.
I post and manage most of my trips with my blackberry. If your phone and account is set up properly it is really simple.
Maybe if you have asked for this a bunch of times a binch of different ways and it hasn't happened that just means it is not going to.
As of this posting you have 3016 posts, all of which you had to be logged in to post. How big of an issues can logging in really be?
Kyle ------------- I smell bacon |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 5:54pm
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Sorry, I wont do it again... ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: Blair
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2010 at 10:27am
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I agree with Kyle. You've posted so much! How dare you Complain! Also, are the blackberries not smart enough as the iPhone to save your user name and password for easy login? I have no issues here. How's about a radical vaginal sandectomy for you. Bahahaha. ------------- |
Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 11:22am
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Originally posted by dave
WOW, again, I made the charts not Leif! He gave me the tools to do the work and I did the work. I was just using the tools to make a point that ...blah blah blah... I have a problem reading long winded posts, so sorry if I did not read the previous posts. ok Dave, no long winded posts. I promise. How's this to sum it up?
 you're just trying to stir sh*t up and as usual folks indulged you hook line and stinker. but still:
boring sh*t was almost funny the first time around. now its just boring... ------------- 🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋 |
Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 11:53am
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Originally posted by MikeV
When I started boating again about 10 years ago (after about 10 years off) ... It used to be that if you saw someone with a boat on the top of their car you gave them a wave. Sometimes you'd meet them on the river and go out for a beer and some Mexican food after. It was tight. Then along came professor paddle... this site was an anecdote for me. Someone wanted to hit the river, posted a message and the trip was on. If you wanted to know if someone was up for a run, you asked them. If someone was going to swim, it was probably going to be on a class III run or below, so not a big deal to me, just fish in their stuff, and get back on the river.
I definitely hear the worry about having someone join a trip when you don't know about their paddling skill (or if they're a total nut job). But, I think we've lost that sense of a kayaking community that we used to have here in the NW - it didn't take long before you knew most of the people out on the river. Some were out everyday, some you'd see every few months. Pretty soon, you were part of a larger connected group. Almost seems like a reflection of our times that people are becoming more insular. I think we're losing something that elevated kayaking above so many of the other sports we can enjoy here in the NW. Maybe I'm totally off, and it's just a cycle. Or maybe it's not safe to post a trip. great to read your thoughts, Mike. If for no other reason than this, this thread shouldn't be deleted, as someone suggested. But then again, you remember the pre-internet boating era, right MikeV? I mean, you didn't need a trip posting tool then did you?
My point is: it's a nice tool, but if it doesn't get used, its sort of like natural selection, isn't it? And then there's all sorts of casual posts for the Sky, CC Stilly, Robe, weekend plans, ect. I mean- that is a mode that clearly works to connect people to each other, doesn't it?
I don't see a problem.
And I see more of a problem among class III boaters not wanting to "take along someone they don't know" because they aren't willing to rescue people. But if you're only talking about class III anyway, sincerely embracing a rescue situation is one of the best ways to improve as a class III boater and progress to class IV.
but yall can do whatever you want. doesn't matter to me. post a trip, don't post a trip. keep to yourself, be open and inclusive, ect. just get what it is out of the sport you want to.
But I too think it smells as if Dave is just trying to stir some sh*t up for the sake of it.
so back to my original asssessment:
------------- 🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋 |
Posted By: franzhorner
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 11:59am
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I'm getting a little tired of all the hating and bashing going on here. I have a fun time and respect and love all of you but its getting hard to swallow all the hate and mistrust. In the past month I have had great river days with Lief and James and it kills me that we can't all get along. I hope that you can all continue to welcome me boating with you although I don't have a reason or care to judge across these lines of disagreement. Lets drop our egos and try to be a little humble for the sake of the community. Finger pointing and he did this or he said that will do nothing but bring us down. Lessons in life have always left me with the hope that I can get along with even some of the people I have had the most conflict with. That hasn't always worked out but, damn, I do not like seeing it here in my beloved boating community.... HUMBLE eye of the tiger, HUMBLE cool like fonzi "To be humble to superiors is duty, to equals courtesy , to inferiors nobleness" Benjamin Franklin ------------- MORE RAIN PLEASE |
Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 1:54pm
| I love you too, Horner. Let's go boating. |
Posted By: GHannam
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 4:31pm
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Originally posted by franzhorner
I'm getting a little tired of all the hating and bashing going on here. I have a fun time and respect and love all of you but its getting hard to swallow all the hate and mistrust. ... Lets drop our egos and try to be a little humble for the sake of the community. Finger pointing and he did this or he said that will do nothing but bring us down. ... HUMBLE eye of the tiger, HUMBLE cool like fonzi "To be humble to superiors is duty, to equals courtesy , to inferiors nobleness" -Benjamin Franklin Well said!! I'm glad someone finally did... THANK YOU!! 
And I love the quote!! |
Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 11:09pm
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If nothing else - this thread has been a good reminder to post trips. I got rescued plenty of times when I was getting started, and after I got established I paddled lots of cool rivers that I never would have experienced, and met lots of great folks thanks to people posting trips online. One easy way to deal with the whole rescue thing is to state upfront whether newer folks are welcome or not. That's no guarantee that you won't wind up chasing boats and swimmers, but I've seen a few trip-leaders swim on runs that they had dialed in my day so there's no guarantee that you won't be the one grateful to the folks who helped you out! ------------- -Jay |
Posted By: jalmquist
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2010 at 6:38pm
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I think most of us would agree on the importance of experienced paddlers showing the ropes to up-and-coming boaters, as that is part of the life-blood and crucial to the longevity of this love we call kayaking. At the same time I’d also stress the importance of newer boaters honestly communicating their abilities. I think some of the frustration comes not from taking someone down a new run, but from taking someone on a run that would have been appropriate for their skills had they been up to what was advertised… Experienced boaters should feel some responsibility in ensuring the health and longevity of kayaking by supporting and encouraging newer paddlers. And newer paddlers have the responsibility to be honest about their abilities, and to practice their skills so they’re appropriate for the task at hand. This in part comes from the realization that the best and safest way to improve is to spend some time practicing harder skills in (more) controlled environments. I’d much rather spend a day on the water with an aspiring class III boater working solid class III skills on a class II+ stretch than I would playing fetch my gear on a harder run… |
Posted By: doggievacation
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 12:03pm
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Well said. But it's not always the fault of the newbie, sometimes more experienced paddlers-- people who should know better-- encourage newbies to run things they're really not ready for yet. I personally believe that swimming is detrimental to progress and try to avoid it by building skills on easier runs, but I know a lot of boaters who feel that swimming is just part of the sport and is an ALMOST UNAVOIDABLE consequence of learning to run harder water. Newbies, being newbies, don't know who to believe, and so they occasionally get suckered onto runs they have no business boating. As for helping fellow boaters improve, that has got to be one of the most awesome aspects of our sport. I have been immensely thankful (thanks Dave!) that someone is helping me get comfortable on Class IV runs, while at the same time, I've been trying to help other boaters I know get comfortable on Class III+ runs. Have these trips been posted on PP? No. But they've been happening all year long. ------------- Don't waste water! |
Posted By: MikeV
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 5:15pm
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Hey JP, When I started boating, we didn't have the internet (god that sounds like a cranky old man talking and I'm not that old), but we did have a bulletin board at the co-op and university-served the same function, but has become obsolete. People also seemed much more likely to take someone under their wing, and, as I said, WKC used to be great too. Online boards are way cool though, and much easier to access. To me, it's just seemed harder these past couple of years to connect with a trip since I don't get out as much as I used to and WKC and PP don't seem to have as many trips as they used to. I've wondered if it's a function of a change in attitude about kayaking itself from a soulful experience to just another sport. I also think the decline of the WKC is either a reflection of this (or maybe a partial cause). |
Posted By: windwaves
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 6:11pm
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I wonder the same thing as I saw the evolution in a couple other passtimes (windsurfing and climbing) from a community of helpful folks to a sport of attitudes where anyone without the coolest gear or latest moves became just a pain in the ass for the regular crowd. Boaters never seemed that way to me... more of the fun, less attitude. I hope it stays that way. I don't know how many pro climbers spend time helping folks work on skills at local crags, but in my short time boating, I've gotten some free advice from Eric Jackson twice in rivers on different sides of the country. Like Mike V, most of my chances to get out these days are spur of the moment and I've been very grateful to join trips in the past that were posted here... So thanks again to James for the site and Jeff B, JP, Sampson, Adrian, ChrisH20tha, Erik S, ... and others of you that do regularly post trips for being willing to invite others along. I agree with jalmquist on being honest about your skills to not turn a trip into a sh*tshow. I think it's also part of the deal about joining a trip to take the advice of the group seriously. If someone suggests that you consider portaging boulder drop today, there is probably a reason.... |