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New Werner paddle?

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Category: General
Forum Name: Whitewater Forum
Forum Discription: Open Discussion Forum. Whitewater related subjects only
URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4888
Printed Date: 27 Apr 2024 at 4:18pm


Topic: New Werner paddle?
Posted By: dave
Subject: New Werner paddle?
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2007 at 9:20am
Ok, so I'm going to buy a new Werner paddle. Money is no object, need carbon bent shaft, but witch one? The double diamond, or the player or? I've seen all you guys with both and some others. I'm also thinking 15 deg. offset.

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Nomad



Replies:
Posted By: erikSANDSTROM
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2007 at 12:15pm
You will definitly want to check out the newest paddle from Wiener Paddles. Its a handfull. I think the model name is the "Grabber" or the "Choker." I can't remember.

Copy and Paste Biatches!

Or click biatches <-functionality added by james



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This river don't go to Aintry. You done taken a wrong turn.


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2007 at 1:05pm
I hate to say this but I am starting to think Werner Paddles need to be challenged... by the New H20 Paddles coming out of Canada and maybe some wooden models. I have heard good things and I personally think that although Werner has a good Product they need a good ding taken out of their budget to remind them that we are a competitive market place even though were in the backyard. It also kinda drives me crazy that just because they are located here we all stick to that brand and don't see many other options because shops are afraid of buying the competition and risking a loss. You all know I have a werner so it's not like I don't like the paddles, I just think there is other options out there and we don't see them because werner is in our backyard.

I might be looking for that next magic wand soon, and I doubt I will be looking at a Werner, I just think that having a different paddle populate our area will do more good for our community, and help diversify a pretty one sided market.




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Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2007 at 4:31pm
You mean the sho-gun?

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Nomad


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2007 at 4:33pm
I'm going to the SRK movie (Hotel Charlie 2?) tonight and going to check out some paddles.

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Nomad


Posted By: Ronin
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2007 at 6:42pm
I don't work for Werner, but it's the only paddle that I'd buy. I'm simply not willing to gamble with $300 to buy a paddle from another company whose products I have no personal experience with & whose willingness to backup their paddle is unknown. I made that mistake about 15 yrs ago when I bought a graphite paddle from an upstart local paddle company. I think it was called RGP or something like that. Anyway, after one short season, the blades delaminated and cracked to the point that it was no longer safe to use. I tried contacting the company, but they had so many complaints that they went out-of-business. It was an expensive lesson for me.    

There's a reason why retails stores stock only Werner paddles. They have good paddles and they back it up. If they didn't, stores wouldn't carry them.

With regards to your original post, I just had a discussion with a friend about the Zune so I edited your post a bit to reflect what he said about why I should spend $249 to buy the Zune instead of the iPod. I thought he was serious until he busted out laughing.

----

I hate to say this but I am starting to think (iPod) needs to be challenged... by the New (Zune) coming out of (Microsoft). I have heard good things and I personally think that although (iPod) has a good Product they need a good ding taken out of their budget to remind them that we are a competitive market place. It also kinda drives me crazy that we all stick to that brand and don't see many other options because shops are afraid of buying the competition and risking a loss. You all know I have a (iPod) so it's not like I don't like their (MP3 player), I just think there is other options out there.

I might be looking for that next (MP3 player) soon, and I doubt I will be looking at an (iPod), I just think that having a different (MP3 player) populate our area will do more good for our community, and help diversify a pretty one sided market.




Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2007 at 9:26pm
I agree that Werner makes a good product (doesn't delaminate, takes abuse, etc), but I've had AT paddles for the last five or six years and have had great success. I paddle a fair amount 50-100 days a year average. I chose AT because of the larger grips and how the grips are oriented to the blade position (try one, you'll see). If you're coming from a Werner it will feel different. I do know Werner has excellent customer service. However, I've never had a problem dealing with AT either. AT's are slightly cheaper also.

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"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 12:30am
Originally posted by Ronin

With regards to your original post, I just had a discussion with a friend about the Zune so I edited your post a bit to reflect what he said about why I should spend $249 to buy the Zune instead of the iPod. I thought he was serious until he busted out laughing.

----

I hate to say this but I am starting to think (iPod) needs to be challenged... by the New (Zune) coming out of (Microsoft). I have heard good things and I personally think that although (iPod) has a good Product they need a good ding taken out of their budget to remind them that we are a competitive market place. It also kinda drives me crazy that we all stick to that brand and don't see many other options because shops are afraid of buying the competition and risking a loss. You all know I have a (iPod) so it's not like I don't like their (MP3 player), I just think there is other options out there.

I might be looking for that next (MP3 player) soon, and I doubt I will be looking at an (iPod), I just think that having a different (MP3 player) populate our area will do more good for our community, and help diversify a pretty one sided market.


I am totally lost on the whole Ipod Zune deal, I think your just mocking me but I am not sure? I think we're entering the realm of double or triple post baiting and I am starting to get dizzy. All I know is that the "Ding from the Budget "comment was the bait and it is freakin in your tummy nice and yummy.

I'm just saying I think it would be nice to walk into a paddle shop and see more than a brand sitting on the wall or maybe 2- 3 at best. It would be pretty cool to see more out there. There are tastes too, some people just have different preferences. Ken Whiting swears by Aquabound and I have broken so many I gag when i think about them. I would be bummed if there was only the Ipod out there too! there is nothing wrong with competing for the highest level for your field, application, or product. Thats how Werners are created and formed. Test, Experience, Research Development, Production, Sales, Experience, and so on.... I am looking for others, not everyone has too though.

So in short I am not in your situation Ron. I have only paddled a few different paddles out there. Mainly because thats all there is out there locally, and of those werner is the best for me. And I know it is a totally personal thing. But I know this too. If I stopped on my first choice I would not have tried Werner and until I have tried all the different paddles out there, how could I honestly say that werner is the only thing I will use or buy. I can't, and I although I want to try every paddle out there... I know that is kinda far fetched and it would take like 15 + years to know everything about them all. So in the mean time I would like to try more than just a couple brands.

Now I am not going to do the tit tat tally wack <~ what is that? but before you edit my little posts don't just cut important stuff that pretty much changes my whole statement and changes the whole perspective of what I said. The whole point of my statement is Selection benefits the community, I can't comment on what your trying to get at cause I am not sure, but based on your last post I think it was the opposite of what I am going for.

I say any paddles that are worthy contenders should be available or tested by our region and that can't happen if the marketplace is not open to new competition. I want an open minded marketplace, you are suggesting a close minded one and that is a bummer because that's just not how I swing baby yea!

~J




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Posted By: joshcrossman
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 8:43am
i tested the h2o paddles for a day up in ottawa last summer and liked them, but they were pretty heavy.   there was a little flutter with some big strokes, but i think that if i had a bit more time to get used to the grip (it's a different shape) that might go away a little.     but it is pretty heavy.   check them out, but i ended up with a double diamond.

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i like it when it rains


Posted By: jondufay
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 9:06am
dude, i hear that harmony and AB both make bomber paddles.

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ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating...


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 9:07am
Ummmm, hmmmm, now I'm very confused. I don't think an ipod will work as a paddle. O did I mention that money isn't a factor for me?

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Nomad


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 9:33am
If money is no factor then have some wicked wood paddle made. Do like something ultra light and rigid to your taste. Then you have flavor, design, sustainable materials, and natural strength.

I want to start trying wooden paddles but there really are'nt any around in the shops or rivers to try. And just hefting up some cash to try something new ain't gonna happen.

~J



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Posted By: Ryan
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 10:39am
I have a carbon werner bent shaft player 15 degree offset and love it.  It is not a foam core as I've heard rumors of them getting water in them and I didn't want to mess with that.

The 15 degree really helped me nail cartwheels and bow stalls.  It took me about 5 minutes to adjust from a 45 degree bent shaft.

Although money isn't a factor don't forget to get your AW member discount.  I know our local Seattle boat shop (SRK) honors this discount.  And if your not a member you should be.... money bags.




Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 12:24pm
Ya, I was looking at the player or the double diamond. I'll have to check out the player.

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Nomad


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 1:29pm
What about the Stikine for an all around paddle. Unfortunatly no one carries any 15 deg. paddles that I can try. I wonder why? 15 deg. just seems like the perfect angle for forward strokes and play paddling, you dont have to slip the paddle around in your hands and it's easier on the wrists, plus the only thing a 45 or 90 is good for is the wind. I don't think we need to worry about wind on the river!

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Nomad


Posted By: PowWrangler
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 1:34pm
I prefer the feel of AT's overall, but they do have a better chance of catastrophically breaking than Werners do.  Saw Hotel Charlie last night and saw about ten broken AT's (ya, those were off of HUGE drops, I know). 
 
Woody Paddles out of Colorado are pretty tough and custom made...a little more effort to get one, but worth it.


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 2:12pm
James, are you useing a Werner Player? I'm considering foam core or not foam core, and the Player is lighter with no foam core, plus its profile is really thin like I'm used to with my white lightning.


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Nomad


Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 2:35pm
AT is a great paddle,, and they sell them off the shelf with 10 degree feathers.  I broke mine in the middle ( the epoxy joint failed)  it was repaired by AT, but I had to pay shipping down there and wait 3 weeks.
    I really like the bends in the shaft that arent as severs as Werner. the grip just feels more secure.
 


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Sure?


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 2:36pm






There is a wood paddle and then there is the Werner, I will stick with Werner for now, looks like James is useing a Player?


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Nomad


Posted By: Ryan
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 2:39pm
i'm pretty sure he uses the one larger than the player.


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 2:43pm
That would be the Side kick?

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Nomad


Posted By: jalmquist
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 2:50pm
"...plus the only thing a 45 or 90 is good for is the wind". 
 
I cordially disagree.  Or at least want to add some insight... 
 
High angle power & control strokes are easier with some blade feather.  With minimal feather you end up cocking your control hand wrist forward when you bend your elbow on that side for a vertical off-side stroke.  That's why you see racers using paddles with significant feather.  A similar vertical stroke on your control hand side doesn't affect the off-side wrist the same as the shaft is allowed to pivot in that off-side hand. 
 
Of course, having blade feather makes certain things - like stalls or off-side stern draws - a bit more challenging. 
 
I'm not saying one is better than the other - it's all a matter of preference.  Just clarifying that there is rational for feathered blades beyond the somewhat unsubstantiated "wind argument". 
 
Jon         


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 2:50pm
Powerhouse I believe

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Posted By: James
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 3:07pm
Uh... I would also say there are alot of other negatives with both also.

It is totally personal preference. Lower Feathers on creeks are more prone to shaft breaks, but less prone to hard pulling or shifting on entry with waterfalls. Higher feathered blades allow you to back deck roll with about half the amount of wrist cock to keep the blade face open. As you lower the feather you have to compensate more and more with your wrists.

ching ching
~J


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Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 3:26pm
Oooh boy, I'm cornfused

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Nomad


Posted By: erikSANDSTROM
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 4:37pm
You cant beat my bamboo and spackle core.

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This river don't go to Aintry. You done taken a wrong turn.


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 8:26pm
Ok, one last question before I order my blade. How come James has a river running paddle and not a play paddle. I noticed the play paddles have downturned blades and the river runners have straight blades. Whats the difference and for me what would be better. (being an all around paddler)

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Nomad


Posted By: Courtney
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 8:50pm
Dave,
 
Having worked for Werner I feel I should chime in.  The down turned blades help with different types of play moves that come from the side of the boat such as cartwheels, etc....  They don't effect the river running though so if you're on a debate and like to play alot you can't go wrong with a play blade.  The bigger blades will give you more power at a slower cadence and the mid sized blades will give power too but a little less at a higher cadence.  Doing long day river runs the mid sized blades are nicer in my opinion since they don't fatigue one's arms as quick.  The difference between AT's bent shaft and Werner's is that Werner has a neutral bend meaning that your hand in in line with the shaft at the mid point and the neck of the blade making it easier to switch from straight to bent.  The AT bend is set off from the center of the shaft.  As for blade size it's entirely up to you.  However the Double Diamond and the Player are to very different paddles and feels very different in the water.  The DD has a floaty feel which some like and some don't.  It's also a play blade and made to pop back to the surface more quickly.  The Player is a standard fiberglass or carbon blade with no foam core.  If you call Werner and ask to borrow a paddle they may let you.  They used to when I was there.  I use a 194 Player all carbon bent shaft with a 30 degree feather, small shaft.  You're welcome to try it sometime if you want but only when I'm on the river too.  I won't loan it out.  By the way, feather angle is all personal preference.  Playboaters usually like less feather and river runner's more, racers even more.  Hope that helps some.  It was a quick sum up of things.
 
Courtney      


Posted By: Ryan
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2007 at 8:57pm
Dave, same goes for me on borrowing the paddle.  I'm hoping to get out on a after work run this week.  I'll be out of town this weekend through the next though.

If the Green comes up that is my first choice.  Second is the Sky.  MM as a last option... if it comes up. :)


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2007 at 5:52am
I don't have time to read this whole thread so sorry if I repeat something. This is in response to Water Wacko's post:

AT's are the most broken paddles on the market. I have seen 6 of my friends break different models over the past year in a variety of different ways. Sorry, but although these paddles feel pretty nice, only buy them if you feel like flushing $300 and going through a long, annoying warranty process. You might get lucky and have an AT that doesn't break on you but that is a long shot.


Posted By: Courtney
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2007 at 6:12am
I've heard good things about Lendal paddles, though I've never personally seen one.  The hard part would be trying one before bying it.  Durability is supposed to excellent.
 
http://brushymountainpublishing.com/lendal_store.html
 


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2007 at 8:14am
Hi Courtney, thanks for the beta, really helps me understand more about the paddles before I commit to one certain blade. It's almost like you need to have two paddles, one for river running and one for play. I'm just concerned about the foam core being dammaged if I slam it around to much, and I do tend to do that. So I guess it's down to faom core or not foam core?

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Nomad


Posted By: Chuck e fresh
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2007 at 12:10pm
I like to go paddle........paddle good

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There's no such word as can't!so stop making excuses!!!!


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2007 at 1:07pm
Yes I do aggree Chuck.

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Nomad


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 8:24am
Thanks for letting me try the Player Ryan, I will be seriously considering that paddle. I took to it like James Cadilac eating gas!

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Nomad


Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 9:19am
Two paddles is the way too go. I use my AT for river running, creeking, big water, etc. But the paddle I swear by and can't live without is the Werner DD. When I broke it I went and bought another the next day.
 
Dave, I am pretty hard on my paddle and have not had any problem with the blade or the foam core of the DD. When it broke, it was the shaft that went, and not the on the seam. I had hit it on a rock and put a small gouge in it and thats where it finally broke.


Posted By: Chuck e fresh
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 9:48am

I agree, the more paddles the better. Same with boats, I'd like to have a different helmet for everyday of the week too. I just wish I new what the different colors did for my technique..



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There's no such word as can't!so stop making excuses!!!!


Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 10:04am
Dave, y'all,

SRK carries AB, Werner, AT, Sawyer (wood paddles), and... I can't remember the last. I know that Jake ordered a sweet custom wood paddle that was a bent shaft. I don't know where he got it from. Maybe ask him. AT's the bomb.

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"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman


Posted By: PowWrangler
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 12:18pm
If the wood bent shaft was yellow, it was a Woody's. 


Posted By: AWETONE
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 12:19pm

AT paddles break-e-break. AB paddles suck-e-suck.



Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 12:33pm
Ya, the Double Diamond is looking like the canidate of choice right now. I'm thinking 20deg. feather 197 length bent shaft DD.
20 deg, I think will be just about right for me, 15 was just a hair to flat and 30 was just a bit to much when trying to bow stall.

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Nomad


Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 3:55pm
I've been doing a lot of paddle demoing lately.  and would like to confirm a couple things without beating this conversation to death. 
 
 #1 Jon's absalutely right about feather degrees.  A 45 degree paddle will give you a wider and easer range of vertical strokes while not breaking your wrist because 45 degrees is kind of a natural ergo twist in our stroke.  a lesser degree will improve some strokes for play boating but make others harder. it's a comprimise.  I wouldn't go below 30. 
 
 #2 Lower feathers on creeks are not prone to shaft breaks. shaft breaks are human error or factory defects. you eather bang your paddle on something or you don't.  you could have a o- 45 and if you paddle nice you might not break it. 
 
 
 #3  Once again with waterfall entries you eaither take your stroke or you miss it.  feathering doesn't affect how hard you pull. waterfalls are  about stroke timing and boat angle.  If you like to creek don't go below 30 degrees for the simple fact of having higher vertical efficient strokes.  it's more a technique issue. 
 
#4 If your backdeck rolling on your right it doesn't matter because your control hand stays the same and should bend your wrist the same from a 15-45 and should be easier beacause you have more presure on both blades. if your trying to off side backdeck roll a lower degree is easer because most of us are right hand control and alows us to use our left wrist more freely. 
 
Werner does make some of the best paddles out there but what ever you get learn how to use it efficiently.  
 
 
 
 


Posted By: erikSANDSTROM
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 3:59pm
I love the way I can grip my Wiener. The long stiff shaft is just the right shape!!

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This river don't go to Aintry. You done taken a wrong turn.


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 8:39pm
Thats pretty funny Eric! But, I was talking about paddles?

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Nomad


Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2007 at 2:48pm
I was looking at a new boat too. Looks perfect for me, the RECOIL by PYRANHA. Player and river runner.

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Nomad


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2007 at 4:36pm
Just saw another AT2 break today.Two weeks old and it broke on the New River Dries.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2007 at 4:40pm
Also, Fluid...false on the creeking thing. You can creek with a zero degree if you have the technique for it. If you are going above 30 degrees and you aren't boating slalom, you have too much feather imho.


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2007 at 5:34pm
Here is my thoughts on creeking with a Zero degree paddle, all my perspectives and feelings from using a lower feathered paddle vs 45's.

First off not many would like it so I am not suggesting that it be the hot ticket. It could in fact be more negative than creeking with a feathered paddle. I learned to boat/roll etc without a feather, so I creek without one too. Just my taste

There is no question in my mind on whether or not shaft breaks are more prone with lower feathered paddles.  I have my own experiences and thats just how I have come to my views on the fact that lowering the feather increases your chance for breakage.  If your paddling a lower feather you have less room for error because niether side of the blade with give on entry. So you can bust your face easier, rack the rib cage harder and break shafts easier also it all depends on how hard you hit and the strength of that shaft.

The second thing to creeking with a lower feather is impact flutter on the paddle when entering from a water fall, now granted I lack the experience on super high stuff that this really comes into play on, but the experiences I have had would certainly still apply just in a larger magnitude on those big drops. When you tuck up for impact and set your paddle to your side, a lower feathered paddle has both blades pointed together vs having one off set, This decreases the amount of flutter that I have felt between the different paddle angles I have used.

Maybe I am totally different, or perhaps I am doing my backdeck roll wrong, but when I try to do it with a higher angled blade it is easier. Zero degree is the most cocked on the wrist for me. I would not be able to formulate a good explanation for this with out two under water camera's, a few water proof strobe lights, a case of Rasputin, several heavy diving weights and 5 feet of green garden hose without the fittings on the end!

James


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Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2007 at 9:21pm
and a partridge in a pear tree.......

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Nomad


Posted By: Will
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2007 at 5:51pm
My 2 cents:
 
Buy a DD foam core. I have one, its all I use. Not one complaint. I beat it up real good and it still looks new. I never heard anyone have problems with water in the foam. You would have to do some pretty serious damage for that to occur. The foam core blades have a super tough edge. I think its Dynel. I think the foam core AT paddles have something similar. Whatever it is makes it a whole hell of a lot tougher than anything else that is laid up composite. Wood is good too. Never used one but I hear Woodies are good.
 
 



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