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Matt Haverly
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  Quote Matt Haverly Replybullet Topic: William Nealy's book - "KAYAK"
    Posted: 19 Jan 2016 at 7:28pm
"KAYAK - THE ANIMATED MANUAL OF INTERMEDIATE AND ADVANCED WHITEWATER TECHNIQUE"

Couldn't believe that nothing popped up in the forum when I searched William Nealy's name so I though I would start a topic on this book and see if there are any takers.

I've just begun flipping through it and I love it. One thing i am noticing right off is the discussion of hand placement on the paddle. It mentions, "For faster, smoother stroking, slide hands in a few inches closer to the center of the paddle shaft than normal."

This is interesting to me as I have been working on paddling basics. Some say hold the paddle over your head with elbows at right angles and that is where grip should be. However I notice my grip tends to get wide now and then. When it does, my sweep strokes get shallow, and it gets harder to do a nice power stroke or sweep stroke. However, when I narrow the grip, everything things to smooth out, and blade finds much better purchase. This ends up being more where the inner part of the curve in my bent shaft paddle is. I used to grip more to the outside of the bend. That is changing though, although for rolls I like the wider grip a bit.

Would love your thoughts on this book and/or grip placement.
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  Quote megspk Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 12:31am
If your hands are closer together than you essentially have a "longer" paddle to roll with, which should make your roll even easier. This will also help to create a more powerful and clean forward stroke and sweep stroke.
If you are trying to roll with your hands at the bottoms of the blades (end of the shaft), you can only reach the length of your arms plus the blade...
“A strong person and a waterfall always channel their own path.” -Unknown

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  Quote Matt Haverly Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 12:38am
megspk,

Definitely feeling what you are saying about the "more powerful and clean forward stroke and sweep stroke". Having grip too wide was really causing the powerstroke and sweep to be too shallow and weak, and making them otherwise was feeling strange until I narrowed the grip. Suddenly was able to paddle in a straight line easier too. This ends up being closer to the insides of my bent shaft handles than the outside (where I was formerly gripping the paddle at).

:)
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 3:38pm
Awesome Book. Hopefully you somehow have the original edition.

Nealy was a potent fixture of 1980's Whitewater Culture. That was his instructional book, which became what he was known for. Prior to it he had published several other books such as Whitewater Home Companion Vol's 1 & 2, Kayaks To Hell, and Whitewater Tales of Terror. I still got a few of them, including Kayak and Jimmy Snyder's Squirt Book.

He also did some books on mountain biking shortly after mountain biking gained popularity.

Every whitewater shop up and down the Appalachians carried his river maps of such rivers as the Yough, Cheat, Gauley, Occoee, etc. The original classics back there. And everyone was walking around wearing his T-shirts.

Before Gopro or any practical video technology. Before Social Media, Google Maps or Internet. That was an era when Whitewater Kayaking truly was a fringe sport.

And William Nealy was an expression of that.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 4:07pm
As far as grip goes, your hands should pretty much go where the bent shaft is. and if that needs to be adjusted then you need a different sized shaft. In fact, you may consider whether or not your paddle is too short for you. Ask paddlers who have a similar height about that.

I went back to a straight shaft because I like the clean simplicity design. And I feel way more free to experiment with how close or far apart I paddle. I mix it up some. Narrow stance definitely gives you more leverage and a powerful forward stroke while widening your grip gives you a slight amount of extra control over the blades and a degree of extra stability.

Neither extreme is ideal, in my opinion.But There is a sweet spot you find and then its preferential. The narrow stance tends to come with more straightened arms, which transfer way more energy from your TORSO ROTATION directly to the water hence moving the boat in long, fluid strides.

Keep in mind that the closer you narrow your grip stance, the more leverage the river has to exert on the paddle. This and also the ergonomics of paddling with straightened arms can potentially expose you to some shoulder fatigue or even shoulder damage so its good to creep up on all this stuff with good instruction and technique. Slowly at first. After you have enough muscle memory that your form is correct, you can paddle more aggressively in more dynamic conditions. But it is SOOO EASY TO fu*k YOUR SHOULDER UP. And once you do, it'll never be the same, pretty much. So it's worth being way slower, more patient, and more methodical about how you progress than you think. But, everyone is different.

Choose You're Own Adventure, just choose wisely.
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  Quote Jed Hawkes Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 4:37pm
The Way I like to think about placement is how would you push on an object in front of you? Would you do it with your hand out in front of your face or over your head? Or if you were to punch something would you drive you hand forward in front of your face or over your head?

Once thing to also think about is the paddle stroke is not just a pulling motion, it's a push/pull motion. The idea that you have an "off" hand is silly and when you take a stroke you should consider how you are using both your arms and your torso. The narrow grip also extends your reach and length of stroke.

The problem many paddles have is that the bent shaft paddles have a very wide grip so people use that wider stance because that is what their paddle has dictated to them.

Really there is no wrong way to position you hands on the paddle it really comes down to what works for you as a paddler. I know serveral very accomplished paddlers that use a wide grip and don't seem to have issues, but I'm increasingly seeing more boaters use a narrower grip.

Play around with it and good luck.
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  Quote jalmquist Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 4:56pm
Don't get off the interstate!  
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 5:04pm
Good points, Jed.
Yup. You really can simultaneously push and pull with both hands better with the narrow stance. Again, triggered by Torso Rotation. That can't be stressed enough. And as jed and megan pointed out the narrow stance lets you extend more of the shaft, and therefore the blade, a bit further past your toes when you sink that catch. But again, you are also exposed to more torque, so you need to know what your doing.


Originally posted by jalmquist

Don't get off the interstate!  



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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by Jed Hawkes


Really there is no wrong way to position you hands on the paddle it really comes down to what works for you as a paddler.


I gotta say though that statements like that are thrown about way too often and tend to lack substance. Not trying to pick a fight with my jedi friend here, but statements like that seem to imply there is no correct way.

Particularly concerning the forward stroke and other stroke technique, there is a such thing as proper form. Not that I profess to be 100% dialed into it by any means. There is a basic ballpark you can find your way towards and then its all about your habits as a paddler.

Whether you want to keen into the deeper underlying form or just turn off your mind relax and float downstream. And, there is time under the sun for both of these modes. Myself I find that lazily floating along is more rewarding after having applied myself to the journey of 10,000 river miles with a bit of intent and, dare I say, discipline.
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  Quote Portage Bro Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 5:25pm
I still have all 4 of the late W. Nealy's books and one of his posters. The first 3 were basically jumbo size underground comic books for paddlers, and then he published Kayak, a book with illustrations and explanations that were far more accessible to novice kayakers than any previous instruction book. I suggest you find someone of similar build who has a smooth and strong paddling style, then study the details (like hand position) of how they do it. Take every opportunity to practice good technique in the flat water between drops.
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  Quote Matt Haverly Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 6:02pm
Great comments/responses.

Well, it is likely my paddle is too short. I have had more than one person who watched me paddle ask me if my paddle was too short. Never have they asked if it maybe was too long. I have a bent shaft Werner Powerhouse that is 197cm long and has a 15 degree feather. Got is used for a great deal. But the Werner site itself says that for a guy my height (6 foot 2 inches), I should have a 200cm paddle. So the preferred paddle length as per the manufacturer specifies 3cm longer than what I am using.

I'm not gonna run off and blame my paddling difficulties on my paddle or anything, but I may get a longer paddle next time - and just go right to the size recommended by the manufacturer for my height.

Without even changing paddle though, from what I have tried already, my grip placement on the paddle was too wide.   I do not know enough about the bent shaft paddle to know where the manufacture expects you to grab within the curve, but to me it feels wide - maybe just a bit - but that could be due to the whole paddle being 3cm shorter than the manufacturer's spec for my size.

I think the decrease in leverage on the paddle with the narrower grip actually forces the issue of using torso more for any stroke - sweep, or powerstroke. Using the torso seems to be happening more naturally with the narrow grip somehow, and the blade is definitely getting better purchase deeper into the water which is helping everything.


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  Quote Matt Haverly Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 6:12pm
I just finished reading the book last night.

Another thing that jumps out at me as I read it is how frequently he recommends reverse sweeps, or reverse "slaps" for many types of illustrated scenarios.

Some people are really resistant to the idea of using any reverse sweep/rudder/brake stroke at all, and recommend a sweep on the right as opposed to a reverse stroke of any kind on the left. The book reinforces an idea that I like - that there is a place for every stroke and much of that has to do with your speed vs. the speed of the current, and what your desired speed is. If I am already going too slow to punch a hole and I need to change boat angle prior to it, I will probably sweep. If I am already in fast water and going faster than the water, I can probably do some type of braking reverse stroke. Although you hear many people demonize any braking strokes of any kind.





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  Quote Portage Bro Replybullet Posted: 20 Jan 2016 at 6:33pm
I think you are on the right track. I haven't seen slaps used in good paddling form, but we all need braking strokes to dump speed at times. I saw a trend toward shorter paddles when park-and-play became popular. A long paddle could get in the way for freestyle, but for river running you would be better off with a longer shaft.
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  Quote BrianP Replybullet Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 12:19pm
I'm not sure that saying you get more leverage and power from a narrow grip is exactly accurate. You can apply much more power by having your hand next to the blade, but it's a short burst of power. It can seem like it's less power because if you're pulling fast/hard enough you're causing the blade to cavitate.

With a narrow grip, you're dispersing power over a longer period of time. The water gives more resistance against your paddle blade which might be why it feels like you have more power.

I paddle with a fairly narrow grip because of this. I like (in general) having the paddle in the water longer. This gives me the advantage of being able to fine tune strokes rather than pulling out and taking another one. Of course when lining up a big slide all bets are off, then it's time to widen up for me.
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  Quote Mauler! Replybullet Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 1:37pm
That's right.....wider grip equalls more power....shorter stroke.   People using a too narrow grip is more common then too wide....I'd say.
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  Quote Matt Haverly Replybullet Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 1:56pm
Brian/Mauler,

I think folks are saying that wider grip = more power/torque IF your blade is getting deep into the water. But narrower grip gets blade deeper into the water and extends farther to the front of the boat for power strokes. Narrower grip is generally less torque, but blade gets into water deeper which creates better purchase. For me, using narrower grip was really doing a lot to correct my strokes and smooth things out, as my problem was paddle getting shallow on sweeps.
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  Quote Jed Hawkes Replybullet Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by Matt Haverly

Narrower grip is generally less torque, but blade gets into water deeper which creates better purchase.


The Deeper water is definitely a helpful advantage becuase your are pulling on the faster water, disadvantage would be in shallow slides or low water.

The WAter boof really comes into it's own when you are pulling on the deep water.
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  Quote Matt Haverly Replybullet Posted: 08 Feb 2016 at 2:20am
A followup on our chat about paddle length and grip:

I have tried a few things:

Narrower grip
Narrower boats
Longer paddle.

My paddle was 197cm. Switching to 203cm paddle with downturned blades and simultaneously using narrower boat made the paddle feel too long again. Werner suggests 200cm for my height and looks like they are right, but I think the 197cm will work ok for narrower and smaller boats. It is amazing what just 3 to 6cm on paddle length does.

Interestingly, EJ's River Running DVD says for river running you can go way way longer especially when starting out, and that he generally disagrees with paddle manufacturer guidelines on that. If you have a longer full volume boat with little rocker, you definitely can do more effective sweeps and forward strokes with a paddle a bit longer.
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  Quote water wacko Replybullet Posted: 08 Feb 2016 at 5:56am
...and there might be a little formula in there somewhere; longer shaft/less rocker, shorter shaft/more rocker. Just a thought.
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  Quote Slackkinhard Replybullet Posted: 08 Feb 2016 at 8:51am
my experience so far has led me to believe there isn't really much difference in all these products/setups. Every boat, every paddle, every pfd, etc has felt different/odd at first, but after awhile ya figure out it's tricks, and it feels about the same. I think it's easy when you're beginning to chase the 'best' setup, when reality is, we just need to practice. Some boats are the right tool for the job, but some folks prove that to be ambiguous all the time. 
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  Quote ZakW Replybullet Posted: 08 Feb 2016 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Slackkinhard

my experience so far has led me to believe there isn't really much difference in all these products/setups. Every boat, every paddle, every pfd, etc has felt different/odd at first, but after awhile ya figure out it's tricks, and it feels about the same. I think it's easy when you're beginning to chase the 'best' setup, when reality is, we just need to practice. Some boats are the right tool for the job, but some folks prove that to be ambiguous all the time. 



Well said!
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  Quote Matt Haverly Replybullet Posted: 15 Mar 2016 at 10:31pm
Update - regarding paddle grip and paddle length

To resummarize, I was kayaking a large Jackson Zen with a paddle that was a bit small for me based on Werner recommendations - a 197cm Powerhouse (I am 6 foot 2 inches tall). I later got a smaller kayak - a Dagger Nomad 8.5, and right away the paddle didn't feel too small for me - worked fine. Recently tried a demo paddle - a 203cm Werner Double Diamond. For my small boats, it felt a bit large.

Just a couple weeks ago I bought a 200cm Werner Powerhouse. IT FEELS JUST RIGHT when I am paddling the Zen, and doesn't feel too big on my smaller kayaks either.

I ran into a guy at the pool tonight who also just recently got a Jackson Zen - large size like mine. He ALSO had a paddle the same size as my old one - 197cm. He was having trouble with his roll being as consistent as it was on prior kayak. He was about 6 feet tall, but his Zen is same size as mine. He ended up borrowing a 200cm paddle and he was rolling right up.

Lessons learned: I think the large size Zen, being an older 2012 model Zen, has pretty flat rocker, and it is also a pretty wide kayak. I think that boat in particular really demands a longer paddle than you would typically use if you were paddling a Dagger Nomad 8.5 or similar type/length creek boat. 200cm is the recommended size for my height. I didn't think 3cm would make such a big difference but it really does. 3cm more and it starts feeling to long on the smaller kayaks.

I also now have moved the seat back one notch from the center - which Jackson says is a popular setup for the Zen (either center notch or one notch back). I tried it all the way forward once and hated it. I have done center notch and also one notch back and I feel like one notch back is the best all around setting so far.

As a beginning kayaker, my kayaking began to really improve when I switched to the smaller creek boat (Dagger Nomad). But now that I have a longer and better fitting paddle, I'm starting to enjoy the Zen much more than I used to, and am using it on the water more. It is a planning hull boat so it has more of a high performance setup going on. The Nomad sure gets you down stuff nice though and is a great confidence building boat, and it didn't seem to matter that my paddle was a little small when I was in it because the Nomad spins so much easier being shorter, narrower, and having so much more rocker.

As for grip, with the longer paddle, I went with straight shaft. Everything is just feeling more natural with this paddle so grip seems to be less of an issue.
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  Quote Dale Replybullet Posted: 16 Mar 2016 at 6:31pm
Sounds like dude at the pool is relying a bit too much on his paddle for his roll. Best not to get too caught up in that line of reasoning.
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  Quote megspk Replybullet Posted: 16 Mar 2016 at 8:25pm
Typically if I'm blaming things on equipment....it's NOT the equipment...it's the user.....

Edited by megspk - 16 Mar 2016 at 8:30pm
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  Quote irenen Replybullet Posted: 16 Mar 2016 at 9:20pm
It's a mix, isn't it? If it was just the user everyone would use the same type of boat and no one would post on here asking about the new 'whatever' (new Mamba, new Nomad, Tuna, etc.) or asking about opinions on bent shaft vs. straight, you name it. And there appear to be tons of opinions. 
It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle.
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