Pin Kit Specifics
Printed From: ProfessorPaddle.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Whitewater Forum
Forum Discription: Open Discussion Forum. Whitewater related subjects only
URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12284
Printed Date: 05 May 2025 at 2:29pm
Topic: Pin Kit Specifics
Posted By: BrianP
Subject: Pin Kit Specifics
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 10:35am
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I know there is a thread with a bunch of info on what people carry for rescue/repair/bailout, but I've got some specific questions about what to carry for a pin kit.
Bare minimum seems to be: rope, two biners, prussik, and some webbing. So my questions are what sizes and lengths do people carry for prussiks and webbing loops? |
Replies:
Posted By: PaddleGirl
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 10:51am
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Originally posted by BrianP
I know there is a thread with a bunch of info on what people carry for rescue/repair/bailout, but I've got some specific questions about what to carry for a pin kit. Bare minimum seems to be: rope, two biners, prussik, and some webbing. So my questions are what sizes and lengths do people carry for prussiks and webbing loops? for webbing i carry two ten foot slings, pre-tied with a water knot.
your prussiks should be sized to fit your rope... maybe someone can chime in here with specifics. if they are the wrong size, they may not work on your rope.
i carry two prussiks which are tied together and i keep those in my vest with biners. the idea with those being if something is pinned, try to use that to pull on the boat before taking the time to set up a z-drag. a slight change in angle, may help the water dislodge it.
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Posted By: BrianP
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 11:04am
| Thanks, one more question...how long are your prussiks? |
Posted By: PaddleGirl
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 11:14am
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hmm. i think, after they are tied, and if you were to pull it so you have two parallel lines of rope, it's about a foot, or maybe 14 inches?
also, your first post just says prussik, but you need two for a z-drag.
and speaking of safety and z-drags... any interest in a practice sesh sometime, before or after boating? i haven't set one up in a year or so, i need to refresh my memory.
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Posted By: BrianP
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 11:17am
| Thanks! Absolutely, in fact I volunteer your landlords boat to be pinned for the sake of real life practice.. |
Posted By: PaddleGirl
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 11:25am
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hahaha, yeah i'll just grab one from the pile. maybe puff the magic dragon? (kidding!) this is a good book:
http://www.amazon.com/Whitewater-Rescue-Manual-Techniques-Canoeists/dp/0070677905/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341858155&sr=8-1&keywords=charlie+walbridge - http://www.amazon.com/Whitewater-Rescue-Manual-Techniques-Canoeists/dp/0070677905/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341858155&sr=8-1&keywords=charlie+walbridge
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Posted By: Jed Hawkes
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 11:44am
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Prussik depends on the rope you have. My throwbag has some pretty thin rope so I use an even thinner prussik, I believe the prussik line should be at least 1/3 smaller than the rope your pulling on. I keep a 3 foot sewn sling in my pin kit, but I have a 10+/- foot piece of webbing that I wear around my waist that serve as an anchor/harness/utility line instead of unfurling my throwbag/safety tool (I use it to clip pinned boats or any other application that I find it useful for). two 3 ft sewn slings will get you pretty far though. You should also have at least one pulley. In a perfect world everyone would carry at least one so when the defecation hits the oscillation there is enough gear to make a 3:1. The pulleys greatly increase the strength of your system. I recommend testing your prussik out in the back yard to insure that it will hold on your rope when it's wet. ------------- The line will become apparent 978-273-7723 |
Posted By: Jed Hawkes
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 11:45am
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my prussik when tied is about the length of my forearm
------------- The line will become apparent 978-273-7723 |
Posted By: SOPBOATER
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 12:15pm
| I say pulleys are light no resin not to carry 3. A good alternative to pusiks are some of the new school light weight ascention / rope gripper products. They work even on freezing rope in many cases. Also the new ones are light and non bulky. |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 1:04pm
| http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/multi-purpose-ascenders-0/tibloc - Tiblocs are what I think your talking about , the only down side is the wear they put on the rope, but it's not like your using them frequently.. |
Posted By: Mark47n
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 1:46pm
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ROck Exotica also makes a great sheave/rope grip combo called a wallhauler.
------------- You mean I'm supposed to wear something UNDER my spray skirt? Where's the fun in that? |
Posted By: Mark47n
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 1:50pm
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Forgot the link http://www.rockexotica.com/products/rope_grabs/all_grabs_camming.html ------------- You mean I'm supposed to wear something UNDER my spray skirt? Where's the fun in that? |
Posted By: chipmaney
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 7:12pm
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Originally posted by slickhorn
Prusiks ought to be ~1/2 the diameter of the main rope. 11mm rescue line? 5 mm cord. I have never seen anyone except Darren carry an 11mm rope in their kayak, and that was for some seriously committed boating.... tiblocs....similarly to prusiks, tiblocs have a specification for minimum rope diameter. much easier to jug up a rope on tiblocs than prusiks, though. not sure how well tiblocs actually work with the spectra rope. i think the main issue is that everybody carries a spectra rope these days, which according to technical specs are way too small for either tiblocs or prusiks of large enough diameter to have sufficient strength. i have always considered whether, in serious situations, i should carry a full size rescue rope in order to avoid issues with anchoring the small-diameter spectra rope... comments and insights welcome ------------- sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end |
Posted By: Sam_Graftton
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 9:32pm
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for webbing i carry two ten foot slings, pre-tied with a water knot.
Why pre-tied with a water knot? |
Posted By: Mr.Grinch
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 9:56pm
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Originally posted by Sam_Graftton
for webbing i carry two ten foot slings, pre-tied with a water knot. Why pre-tied with a water knot? So the loop can be wrapped around a tree or other suitable anchor and clipped into the system quickly. ------------- nnln. |
Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 10:05pm
| what if your only tree is too big and your water not is too tight to get undone because it's a year old and you can't wrap it ?? or you dont have a tree ?? just a big ass boulder ?? |
Posted By: Mr.Grinch
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 10:32pm
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Originally posted by FLUID
what if your only tree is too big and your water not is too tight to get undone because it's a year old and you can't wrap it ?? or you dont have a tree ?? just a big ass boulder ?? I wondered the same, but the advice I was given was as I replied.  ------------- nnln. |
Posted By: Sam_Graftton
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 10:46pm
| Right the problem with a girth hitch is it's not near as strong as a wrap 3 pull 2. Tubular webbing is rated up to 4,000 pounds. So in theory with a warp 3 pull 2 your anchor is rated up to 12,000 pounds minus the water knot. I don't think a girth hitch is the way to go for anchor with a pin! |
Posted By: chipmaney
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 7:08am
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if you take time to dress your water knot when you tie it, shouldn't be an issue to get it undone, especially on webbing. To me, it's quicker to undo a water knot than to tie it, so I keep my webbing tied like a sling.
agreed, girth hitch works, but much better to wrap a sling and connect both loop ends with a single locking biner, or better yet, the wrap2/pull3 to which Sam refers. ------------- sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end |
Posted By: chipmaney
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 7:09am
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Originally posted by Mr.Grinch
Originally posted by FLUID
what if your only tree is too big and your water not is too tight to get undone because it's a year old and you can't wrap it ?? or you dont have a tree ?? just a big ass boulder ?? I wondered the same, but the advice I was given was as I replied. this is one of the reasons I carry 2 pieces of webbing.... ------------- sitting all alone on a mountain by a river that has no end |
Posted By: BrianP
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 8:53am
| Excellent info, I really like the spectra sling idea, especially since it is so versatile. Does anyone know where you can purchase spectra webbing (I'll be buying a couple slings but I've got another project in mind too) |
Posted By: BrianP
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 9:02am
| Also, does anyone have experience using some type of prusik or sling system as their PFD tether? I've heard of that being done so then you've already got that part of your z drag with you. I would also imagine its easier to anchor yourself with spectra than a bungee? |
Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 9:04am
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Originally posted by chipmaney
if you take time to dress your water knot when you tie it, shouldn't be an issue to get it undone, especially on webbing. To me, it's quicker to undo a water knot than to tie it, so I keep my webbing tied like a sling. agreed, girth hitch works, but much better to wrap a sling and connect both loop ends with a single locking biner, or better yet, the wrap2/pull3 to which Sam refers. I think you meant the wrap 3 pull 2 ... in order to do that your water knot gets tied as you put it on. then undone as you take the system down. Still most folks that leave there webbing in a loop with a knot after the girth hitch and being in a loaded system then gets thrown back in the boat. I have been on a couple rescues where the anchor point was to big and the old pre looped water not that was in your last loaded rescue system 6 months ago is fused and impossible to get undone and i'm totally guilty of having this happen. If the system has been loaded and your truly yarding on something that water knot is not quick to get undone unless you do the 3-2 right..... the wrap 3 pull 2: http://http://www.mazamas.org/your/adventure/nw/wrap-3-pull-2-about-the-strongest-anchor-you-can-build/ - http://www.mazamas.org/your/adventure/nw/wrap-3-pull-2-about-the-strongest-anchor-you-can-build/ |
Posted By: PaddleGirl
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 10:08am
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Originally posted by FLUID
what if your only tree is too big and your water not is too tight to get undone because it's a year old and you can't wrap it ?? or you dont have a tree ?? just a big ass boulder ?? apparently, I haven't completely thought through this. just seemed like the thing to do since there's always a tree in all the fake scenarios. and it's never been loaded from a real scenario.
good stuff coming out in this thread... i've never heard of the pull 3/wrap 2 (or whatever it is) or using spektra webbing.
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Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 11:17am
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Totally a great thread !! No real scenario is going to be perfect. You might be in a gorge where we often are where trees have been gone for thousands of years and all you have is a boulder or granite nub to anchor off. Maybe the wrap 3 pull 2 doesn't work and you have to tie two webbings together just to loop a piece of old growth thats the only thing chocked in there.
Gear is a must and simple is better but most of the time thinking outside the box is your best resource. Being fast and efficient is whats going to save a life. Rescue skills are what you do in the first four minutes. I mean in the end the Z drag stuff is all recovery most of the time anyway. Lets be honest......... |
Posted By: Sam_Graftton
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 11:42am
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I think it comes down to how much you train on MA. If you use it enough you could totally save someones life in a pin scenario.
All I carry for the most part is a throw bag and a carabiner. If you know how to use a lasso and a vector pull that should be all you need. |
Posted By: FLUID
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 11:57am
| Agreed.... we broke two systems on a raft on marsh creek and in the end all it took was a vector pull with a cheesy throw rope with the group pulling and it popped right off...two hours later a change of direction in the middle was all it needed... I'm a firm believer in the vector !!!! good call..... |
Posted By: Mr.Grinch
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 12:10pm
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Originally posted by chipmaney
agreed, girth hitch works, but much better to wrap a sling and connect both loop ends with a single locking biner, or better yet, the wrap2/pull3 to which Sam refers. Wasn't taught to use a girth hitch. Thanks for the info about the W3P2! ------------- nnln. |