East Coast is different...
Printed From: ProfessorPaddle.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Whitewater Forum
Forum Discription: Open Discussion Forum. Whitewater related subjects only
URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10966
Printed Date: 02 May 2025 at 9:28pm
Topic: East Coast is different...
Posted By: tiziak
Subject: East Coast is different...
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2011 at 7:33am
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Replies:
Posted By: up4air
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2011 at 9:21am
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Watched it on Facebook. After seeing pics of it I wondered if it got ran. I think something bad happened to your link or embed, nothing here. ------------- More water, please. |
Posted By: mokelumnekid
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2011 at 2:06pm
| This may be a stupid question- but what do you mean by "more involved"? Great footage- but- do you mean public or? |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2011 at 3:21pm
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Involved process in that the nearest river with any kind of steepness is over four hours away. There are a lot of accesibilty issues (it seems like). There is virtually no stealth camping available. I will definitly appreciate Washington much more after this trip.
Public what? ------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: irenen
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2011 at 5:21pm
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Great video Dan! Now I have boof envy (1:05 :). I didn't boat on the east coast but I spent a lot of time growing up there, I know what you mean. ------------- It's all fun and games until someone loses a paddle. |
Posted By: Jimmy
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2011 at 7:22pm
| Maybe true for where you were at, but a very bad blanket statement. I boated the Carolina's, North Georgia, Alabama, east Tennessee, and never had a problem finding free camping or had to drive hours to find the water. If you want to boat, don't take a job 4 hours from the water! |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2011 at 4:47am
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Alright, if you live in Virginia beach, it is hard to boat anything quality. The nearest river with any gradient is the upper yough, and that's about 4 hours away. Even when you are in an area with a lot of whitewater, it is still a lot different than WA. I spent the weekend in Ashville boating the green and even with a HUGE rain storm, nothing came in until Monday. And, then Ravens ran:(
Its beautiful here and the whitewater is awesome, I'm just saying it doesn't hold a candle to washingtons boating. There are so many options for all except about two months of the year. August and September are really the only times you need to put serious miles on your car to get good water. It seems like that's the norm here except for the winter. On the same token, if I lived in Spokane, I'm sure I would have the same complaint. Appreciate Seattle people, it's an awesome place to live.  ------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: Leland
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2011 at 6:04am
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You were here in the Southeast immediately following the driest 3 weeks we've had since February, which is why it took a big rain to bring things back in. If you had been here in March, April, or the first half of May you would have been able to boat around Asheville every day. I paddled 23 days in March and April. I also didn't wear a neck gasket in the Southeast during March or April due to how balmy it was. Can't say I've ever experienced that in Washington, where I had to put my drytop back on in late May this year.
Both areas are great for boating. I love Washington, and I love the Southeast. I probably couldn't pick a favorite if I had to. If you think the east is so inferior to Washington, it means you're not doing it right. I've never known a boater who was happy in Virginia Beach. |
Posted By: huckin harms
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2011 at 8:24am
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Thanks for sharing your exploits Dan. Dude, I think the NW paddling community is missing your presence. At anyrate, keep it up... and let us know when you be getting back here.
Leland, I understand your bias. Backyard runs are near impossible to diss on. You and Andria coming west this year? We'd love to see you two outnabout again! ------------- |
Posted By: warlickone
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2011 at 8:24am
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It's more true that the boating is in the appalachian mountains and the greatest employment is in the city. The cities in mid-atlantic tend to be about four hours from the mountains. Thus, four hours from the goods.
The trick is to find good employment in the appalachian mountain region. Culturally, the urban va/pa/nc areas are very different than the boating towns scattered through the mountain regions. As you know, there is no real snowpack and no aquifer. So the boating is all based on rain fed streams. The downside of this is you have to chase the rain, and boat on your preferred part of the bell curve of the rain spike. The upside is you can choose your level. If you like it higher or lower, read the gauges/rain report and get the level you like. Here in WA things are much more stable, so the level generally seems to be about whatever it is, take it or leave it. I'm relatively new to Washington so I can't say for sure. But, the small town nature of boating towns in the east generates a wonderful social scene of tight knit friends. Bonfires, bluegrass, beer, and camping are core staples of average east coast boating. Seems Seattle boaters scatter more and or return to the city more than hang out. The other thing is that as rivers over there flash up and down, you can predict where the gang will be any day. That means to get partners, you go to the river that's at the right level and the crew will be there. Much easier to hook up and get laps without calling a bunch of people to line up partners. Another thing the east coast has is super awesome class IV with real character and real boofs. Seems stuff in WA is either gravel easy or balls hard. The moderate whitwater in WA tends to lack character. Yeah, east coast boating is different, but it's still fun. So is WA boating... Cheerio...Jim |
Posted By: JayB
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2011 at 9:44am
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Agree with Jim about the tightness of the scene out there and the number of quality runs in the sweet spot between "Gravel Easy" and "Balls Hard." Same in the NE as in the SE apparently. You can thank the geology for the many runs in the sweet spot, and the hydrology for bringing boaters together to the water. IMO the PNW pretty much wins any boating based beauty-contest hands down, but there's some good stuff back there. ------------- -Jay |
Posted By: Leland
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2011 at 12:33pm
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Originally posted by huckin harms
Leland, I understand your bias. Backyard runs are near impossible to diss on. You and Andria coming west this year? We'd love to see you two outnabout again! I'm not biased - I like Washington and the SE pretty equally after spending a lot of time in both places. Slight edge goes to Washington on quality of whitewater, simply because I've come to like a bit more flow than we usually get down here. I used to like the more technical stuff we have here better, and a lot of people do prefer that. I will agree with the above poster who pointed out that the SE kicks the sh!t out of Washington when it comes to quality class IV. Slight edge goes to the SE for the weather, which is undeniably better than the PacNW. I won't have to put on more than a shorty from now until late September, and most days I don't wear a shirt at all on the river. This makes a big difference in how I perform. If you haven't tried boating in that kind of warmth, you should. You'll see what I mean. It's easier to find folks to paddle with in the SE, which is nice. Sometimes the rivers are really crowded here, though, so Washington is better in that respect. Washington has better camping, hands down - but there are good spots in the SE if you know where to look. I guess my main bias is that I think the SE and Washington are the best places to paddle. Not gonna make it out there again this summer. I was out for a week in May, but heard you were on IR when I was there. Hopefully we'll get back on the road next year... |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2011 at 4:32pm
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As someone who lived in DC (yes, in the city) for a long time and boated there. The Potomac was less than a half hour away from home and work. Gradient - 4 hours? Really? if you really want to. There are quality runs with gradient waaaay closer especially after a good rain. How many urban areas can you go surf before work? After work? Damn do I miss surfing with the sun coming up over the Potomac then getting to work with my gear over my car, drying. I miss surfing by moonlight on warm nights. I miss having a fleet of boats for all the super fun surfing and playing at different levels...squirt boat, long boat (velcro visor optional), short boat, playboat. I miss the wildlife on the Po - turtles, pterodactyls (herons), deer, even the vultures. I even miss attaining (I can't believe I just said that.) Ahhh the days of decent play spots and rolling with not getting an ice cream headache. I wore my drysuit maybe 3 months a year, not 10 like here. It is friggin June and I wore a drysuit, helmet liner, and pogies yesterday; last week when I was on the Po I wore nothing but a PFD. Yah, I'm sporting PFD tan lines and they rock. You all should be jealous. Plus there is so much class 4-fun in the Appalachians vs. class 4-mank like WA. And the quality of play is far superior. Woah, there are fun holes and waves instead of manky pourovers to play in - imagine that! How about boating in the fall with a slight breeze and having all the yellow, orange, and red leave gently fall about you. Simply glorious. Or being on a river during a thunderstorm - truly awesome experience. Yah, the cascades are beautiful, there are fun rivers here, and it is nice to go home and sleep in your after a couple hours of boating (usually because you have been freezing your ass off all day) but I sincerely miss the whitewater and temperature of the east coast. Oh and there is quality boating in late uly august/sept/oct thanks to well managed dam releases (thanks AW!) Okay-I'll readily admit the skiing is much better in WA but not the boating. |
Posted By: LisaF
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2011 at 5:53pm
| Well, Martha, I don't really think these guys are talking about "surfing a nice wave," which is probably way too tame for them. Methinks they're referring to class 5+, which the northwest has in abundance (and less than a 4-hour drive). What else could it be? (BTW, I AM jealous of your PFD tan lines!) |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2011 at 6:43pm
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Actually there are some 5+ tribs into the Po (and, duh, others less than 4 hours) that are paddled by the select few - not talking difficult run, fishladder (also shown in the vid) or the falls. they are short but damn stout and are occasionally run.
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Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2011 at 7:17pm
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------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2011 at 9:45pm
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"Last week when I was on the Po I wore nothing but a PFD."
Snap that would chafe my nipples. Pretty dangerous with no helmet but it is a deep river. Nipples safety would be my bigger concern of course |
Posted By: warlickone
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2011 at 4:08am
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I used to have a palm lifejacket that had a mesh liner against my chest. I had to cut that mesh out as it was rubbing my nipples raw on the first day.
Funny. Jim |
Posted By: brig
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2011 at 9:40am
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+1 for Leland.
Moved out here a year ago and I'm beginning to love the boating, but it's taken a while to find people to boat with. SE: Easy to find people to boat with PNW: Not so much SE: Warm temps, year round boating (nov. - dec. sometimes dry) PNW: Year round boating SE: Green Narrows, Ocoee, Cheoah, (all dam controlledand release regularly) Chattanooga, TN/Western, NC/ Northeast, AL/Northwest, GA are what I really consider the East Coast, yeah....it's the SE but still....... In Chattanooga, I would drive 10 min. after work for 1.5 miles of class 5 do two laps and be at a bar all before dark.....miss that. And Dan.....why Virginia Beach? ------------- Chris B. |
Posted By: shirepaddler
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2011 at 12:44pm
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great topic you got going Dan, thought i'd throw in my 2 cents.
I spent around 7 years in the SE (DC and Augusta, GA) and 8 years here in the NW (Seattle and Leavenworth) paddling.
SE: I definitely miss the warmth, the paddling community and i'd have to agree there are a lot of amazing class IV rivers. On top of all the good V. It was definitley crowded on the river or at play spots at times, but I do miss having that sort of paddling enthusiasm. I'd have to say the SE was a great place to learn to boat...and to keep boating. But if you are a skier it's pretty slim pickings.
PNW: I moved to Leavenworth to raise my kids in a 'small' town and to be close enough to the paddling and skiing that I could still do that regularly. I'd put it out there that this area is hard to beat...if you can handle being a seasonal boater, and somewhat chilly water. Why is it hard to beat....let me count the ways. In 10 minutes from my house I can be at the takeout of 2 amazing class V rivers that we'll boat regularly from april-aug/sep. And once the wenatchee get's going there is miles of some of the best playboating to be had right down the beach from my house. I'll agree the water is a bit chilly, but i've been in my shorty-top for the past month (ahem, with arm warmers and a skull cap ;)
I'll also agree that it's hard to find the user-friendly class IV that was so abundant out in the SE (i do miss Sect IV), but if you are looking for high quality class V and amazing playboating out your back door this is the place.
As for the 'wildlife', I do remember some pretty impressive dead-cows floating down the Potomac...Yesterday I saw an Osprey fishing while I was at rodeo hole and a salmon jumping out of the river downstream. And the water is awfully pretty out here...my memories of the Potomac water quality are not so pristine.
It's not unusual to be creeking on the Icicle, or playing on the wenatchee, on a beautiful sunny day, and someone will remark how amazing it is that no one else is out. I guess thats part of the beauty of it. One amazing area, and no crowds. Unless you go into town during Oktoberfest
Cheers
Kelly
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Posted By: mokelumnekid
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2011 at 3:39pm
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Here's a wrinkle that reflects a noobs perspective- where is it easier to learn? I'd love to go out and practice thirty rolls in a row on a regular basis, my bracing, etc. like right now, tonight, but...its that ice cream headache thing if I do it on the river. Plus folks here in the PNW don't generally have private pools (at least in my income bracket) to share. When I go to Lake Washington to practice, my gear stinks like a ducks ass, and I come up covered in milfoil. It was quite a revelation for me on my first Rogue trip just a few months after I started boating, when I flipped in that balmy water and went, "Wait a min, it ain't so bad down here- I'll take a moment to really get my set-up right." Etc., etc. It crossed my mind- what if I could learn to boat, initially anyway, in warmer water? How might that speed my progress in the basics? I learned to climb in Calif. with an infinity of great moderate rock, easy to protect in great weather. When I came up here in the late '80's noobs were going to INDEX to learn climbing for chrissakes. It was like being punished....I'm sure there is a parallel here to surfing- must be some reason it was invented in a tropical climate  I know you alde farts are thinking- that it makes ya tough, and that having a steep learning curve weeds out the weak. But if progress, at least initially, is about muscle memory and doing reps and laps, it just makes me wonder is all. I lived 'out east' for a few years but long before I was trying to learn to paddle. It was in Baltimore. I hated it. Nuff' said on that point. |
Posted By: Leland
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2011 at 6:22pm
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Originally posted by mokelumnekid
"Wait a min, it ain't so bad down here- I'll take a moment to really get my set-up right." Etc., etc. It crossed my mind- what if I could learn to boat, initially anyway, in warmer water? This is the primary reason that there are many many many more times as many paddlers in the SE as the PNW. Add in all of the reliable dam releases and it's paradise for people who are learning. |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 4:18am
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There are a lot of opinions here! Let me start off by saying that I am in no way bashing the SE. I was just reiterating a comment I had made earlier that this trip has taught me to appreciate WA. I lived in WA for almost six years before I got into a kayak there and really fell in love with the state. Then, even when I started boating again, I would regularly pass up trips because I didn't feel that driving for an hour and a half was worth the effort. I live in the middle of nowhere in Port Orchard and the sky is still only two hours away and it's always in. I'm 1.5 hours from both Ernie's Canyon and Jefferson Creek. I'm 3 hours from icicle creek. Icicle!!
Like I said, it's gorgeous here. I've fallen in love with Ashville. I haven't been in a boating community like that since I lived in Coloma (CA). The water here is different, it's warm! And everything is smooth (and undercut...). I had forgotten what it was like to paddle in board-shorts and a life jacket. It is a different mindset. The warm weather and warm water definitely lend to a much more laid back attitude. I feel like in Washington as soon as you're off the river people scatter instead of hanging out and drinking beer. It seems like that is the M.O. of the south east boater; get off the river and get a beer in your buddies hand. I like that. Reminds me of the NorCal scene and I miss it. Spent the last weekend back on the Green and I can't say I've gotten the grin off my face. There were so many boaters and so many breweries. It's just a fun place to be. It even started raining on Sunday but I was still comfortable with nothing but a life jacket on. I think the weather does play a huge role in the number of boaters. A swim in bath water isn't as scary. A swim in icicle is very scary. You can't feel your hands after a couple of minutes. When I go home to California I notice a lot more boaters as well, and while the water isnt as warm as the Green, it's still miles warmer than anything in WA. Both places have there merit, in fact, I think any place that has moving water is awesome. I highly recommend the trip out here, it will show you a different side of boating if you've only paddled in the PNW. Cheers ------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 4:22am
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Chris B: I'm here in Virginia Beach for school until the fall. Wasn't my choice but it works.
Mike: you'll catch me lurking soon. Take care buddy! ------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2011 at 8:17pm
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You ain't kidding around ... Is there even enough people willing to go on a river around here to make some thing like this happen in the NW? http://www.flickr.com/photos/dboo/4359621663/in/set-72157623422872024/">  That is an epic raft race right there! |
Posted By: brig
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2011 at 9:57pm
That looks like the Ocoee in August. 
I can almost see myself under that one raft....you know, the yellow one. ------------- Chris B. |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2011 at 3:06am
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------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2011 at 3:08am
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------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: shirepaddler
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2011 at 11:25am
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Groove Tube, ohya...nice footage!
esp the left line at Zwicks, you get an 50 extra points for taking a scouting paddler out
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Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2011 at 11:45am
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I couldn't see the guy until I was commited to running him over. The guy swam out of the hole in the middle of zwicks. He was stuck there for a good 20 minutes or so. Not a place I would want to swim. But he was Johnny on the spot when it came to kayak hurtling! ------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2011 at 6:08am
Posted By: TastyWaves
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 1:41pm
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Washington has a bigger penis than the southeast. ------------- Wise men say forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza. |
Posted By: TastyWaves
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 1:54pm
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I learned more about kayaking in 1 year in Washington vs. 14 years of paddling in Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina and North Carolina.
Sure if you're lucky enough to live right on section IV of the chattooga or on the green river, you'd be a legit paddler for sure.
But take in to account the amount of committment it would take to actually get out and boat every weekend, like you can from Seattle, and this is a comparison that really can't be made...
to Icicle Creek within 2 hours = gangsterlicious
Put simply, WA is a boating mecca.
And if we are comparing an entire REGION to Washington state, lets level the playing field a little:
Washington/Oregon/British Columbia/Idaho
------------- Wise men say forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza. |
Posted By: septimus prime
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 3:48pm
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Adrian for president of the new whitewater nation of Cascadia. ------------- Jon Shell Bee |
Posted By: TastyWaves
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2011 at 4:25pm
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too bad I lost my NW residency card.. but I'll be back ------------- Wise men say forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza. |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2011 at 9:06am
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Posted By: James
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2011 at 9:16am
| I agree with Monk. Plus not even our nation's president needs to be a resident, citizen or even a person these days. I vote for Adrian! |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2011 at 5:32pm
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------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: Leland
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 11:43am
| If you liked Big Creek, you should really try to get West Prong. It's similar style but steeper, cleaner, and 6 miles long. With good flow it's kinda like 6 miles of Gettin' Busy with smooth, round rocks. |