Swimming Ethics
Printed From: ProfessorPaddle.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Chit Chat
Forum Discription: Non Boating Related Discussions
URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7780
Printed Date: 20 Jun 2024 at 9:54am
Topic: Swimming Ethics
Posted By: Tobin
Subject: Swimming Ethics
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 10:24am
|
I have a question; If you swim, does it matter how it happened to be considered a swim. It seems to me, that even if you are sucked out of your boat, it is still considered a swim. Thoughts? swmimmer swimmer swimmer swimmer swimmer swimmer swimmer ------------- Sure? |
Replies:
Posted By: STLboater
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 10:53am
|
My rule of thumb for a swim is that -you pull skirt But, if you have a skirt implosion or something of the sort, if you fall outta the boat, its a swim. Also, if the skirt implosion is due to a large mistake on your part, it is also a swim. I've had my skirt blow plenty of times playboating, but in no way do i consider it a swim. ------------- Kayak Academy Whitewater Instructor |
Posted By: kebm1979
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 1:11pm
|
I had a friend whose skirt didn't fit his creekboat very well, and it seemed to implode at least once a trip down the river. He was a good enough/ lucky enough paddler that he always managed to make it to shore and empty his boat, but i thought if he ever swam cause of that dang imploded skirt it should count as a swim cause he knew it was gonna implode, and was just being too lazy to buy the correct skirt for his creekboat. although I remember once on the Illinois I missed a moved and dropped into a big hole, and in the process of getting worked my skirt blew and I had to swim. I remember being really pissed cause I was doing a hell of job taking that beating, and despite getting worked, I felt somewhat under control and thought I was gonna eventually flush. I always hated calling that a swim, but being that by pants were still soaked the next day for the final half of the trip, I was suffering the effects of swimming. lesson learned wear a drysuit not a drytop/drybib combination for cold multiday boating, and I think since imploded skirts still causing ya to swim, it's swim. as much as that does suck. the thing i always like to fight though, is if i rescue all my own gear. why should i have to do a booty, or buy others beers. they didn't help me, unless laughing at me counts. ------------- Everyday has at least one happy hour |
Posted By: Leland
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 3:19pm
|
I think it's much more technical than that. First, you have to be trying to execute a whitewater move in order for it to be a swim. If you slip getting out of your kayak and fall in the river, it's not a swim. After that, it's got more to do with the depth of the water you exit into. If you exit into water deeper than about mid-calf, it's a swim. If you pin and step out onto dry rock, it might not be a swim.
|
Posted By: oukr9965
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 3:36pm
|
Tobin, I think what needs to be considered is what caused the implosion/sucking out of boat to happen in the first place. If a line gets blown, some unintentional hole time is experienced, pinnage occurs and pullage of the skirt happens (even if still upright and dry), or an upset occurs with a succeeding beating rendering ejection from the boat without pulling.....I'd say it constitutes as a swim. It's nice when your buddies say, well, atleast you didn't miss the roll. However, deep down inside I know that an error on my part caused me, in one way or another, to end up out of my boat. If you're playing in a feature, get sucked out/skirt implodes, swim....I'd probably consider it equipment failure (although there are work arounds for it), but a swim none the less.
I saw a guy run BZ a couple of weeks/months back and his skirt imploded. He came out upright and paddled to an eddy. It was pretty impressive. In another instance I've seen skirts blow (hammering spot on cc lewis), then a successful roll attempt, and paddle to shore to drain. So not all implosions cause swims.
Just my $.02.
|
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 3:59pm
|
All good points!
The problem I am having is this, the swimmer in this case, we will call him 'Lewis' to protect his identity, blew his line and went into a hole at the weir.
Apparently he was "sucked" from his boat and a few flip, rinse, repeat cycles he swam out.
I heard about this second hand, and as I am jonesing for anything kayak related, and get a warm fuzzy when 'Lewis' swims, I had to ask him about it, he said " I got sucked out of my boat, there is a difference" & " At least I try to throw myself in big holes"
From the person who was there, we will call him 'Tiny Tim', I was told that he learned a very valuable lesson. When 'Lewis says"Just follow me Tiny Tim"' Don't!! & " I will never F&*%inf follow 'Lewis' again."
I think this needs clarification, and maybe 'Lewis" will tell us the whole story to fill in any blanks that 'Tiny Tim' left.
------------- Sure? |
Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 4:12pm
|
If Lewis's skirt was still on the boay after said 'sucking' it could count. ------------- "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman |
Posted By: huckin harms
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 5:24pm
|
Lewis likely did not get "sucked" out, just can't see it happening like that; more likely Lewis has a difficult time owning up to a swim (no matter how inadvertant it may have seemed...)
TIME TO CLEAR THE AIR and DRINK FROM THE BOOT
|
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 5:28pm
|
Easy Definition: Swimmer: Not in ones boat and floating/swimming in river. Nuf said? ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: Chuck e fresh
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 5:52pm
|
Isn't swimming simple ..if you have no boat and you are kicking your legs and either exicuting an over stroke or doggy paddling your swimming !! Implosion explosion, inversion , oversion, break your boat or getiing sucked out , you've swam ! Suck it up shizat happen's admidt defeat and do it right next time ! If you get your gear yourself and no one helps you you've still swam but you've self rescued and need not drink from the bootie and you owe no one a six pack but yourself ! If your worried about you probably have an ego problem and should seek counsal. I will only charge you 30 bucks a session if your in need of help ! Dr. Chuck-e-fresh M.D M.C 1. Wik wik wack ! ------------- There's no such word as can't!so stop making excuses!!!! |
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 7:17pm
Like this Dave?
 Yep, out of his boat, in a river!
Swimmer swimmer swimmer swimmer swimmer
------------- Sure? |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 8:24pm
|
I cant believe this @#*&, this is a setup...
------------- Nomad |
Posted By: ashleygoesdisco
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 9:12pm
|
But... you're out of your boat and swimming, Dave!
------------- Ashley Duffus Well behaved women rarely make history. www.naiyadays.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Chuck e fresh
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 9:25pm
|
Self rescue thow , no bootie beer !! ------------- There's no such word as can't!so stop making excuses!!!! |
Posted By: SupaSta
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 9:45pm
|
Originally posted by dave
Easy Definition: Swimmer: Not in ones boat and floating/swimming in river. Nuf said? Agreed.
 I don't understand the controversy. You're either in your boat or you're not.
 If keeping count is important to you, then get a skirt that fits, make sure it has an implosion bar, and quit missing your lines => problem solved.
 Dan ------------- Life is short, paddle hard! |
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 10:10pm
|
Where is your paddle? Looks like you missed all your kit? Back on topic, "Will the real 'Lewis Please Stand Up, Please Stand Up?' A note to the Detractors; All is in good fun, as much as I enjoy a good beat down, it is always with the greatest concern for the person being beaten. Safety first, after the fact, fun and jibes. Maybe 'Tiny Tim' will give up the bank? ------------- Sure? |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 10:37pm
|
There are a couple of times where I simply forgot to put the skirt on at all. Once surfin Grannies, It took me a quarter mile to paddle to shore. My head was the only thing sticking ap out of the water and I was paddling for all I was worth with my arms over my head. I think rob almost puked laughing so hard. The other time was a ten foot seal lauch where I didn't think the boat was ever going to resurface. (I should get float bags for my play boat). In the case of the seal launch, people still had to wait for me to get out, empty my boat, and get back in. So I sometimes count them as a swim even though I didn't swim.
So, regardless of gear failure, missed line, intentional bad line, or just plain forgetfullness or stupidity, A Swim is a Swim! (sometimes even when you don't "swim")
As for owing beers, or booty beers, I believe the point is repayment for energy and time lost in retreiving gear. Therefore; Complete self rescue = no beer or booty beer owed.
|
Posted By: justin
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 10:39pm
| This thread should be called the semantics of swimming. |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 10:57pm
|
I hate to even chime in on this thread because it's like a horse that just won't die... Its all on the boater in question. Self Rescue or not....  I know of folks that sip the booty after self rescues
on steep runs, and of folks that won't even touch the bootie after long
epic extractions on road side class IV. We love em all... it's up to
the boater, then the group on how much crap they want to talk....
Heck I'm sure we all know some dudes that pound the booties even if they miss lines... its a method of self punishment and group chastastion for poor technique.
All in good fun at the take out after a run
Unzip the bootie and don't be so snootie guzzle the suds and laugh with yer buds try harder next time and best stick that line the dirtier the sock the more you will rock cry on my shoulder you bootie beholder!!! http://professorpaddle.com/media/photoview.asp?File_Id=3314">
 |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 11:42pm
|
Yes, James, it is up to each individual or group. But what I stated was my personal rule of thumb.
If someone else rescues me and/or my gear and the "booty" is not enforced, I buy the rescue party beer (or beverage of there choice). And if it is "epic" than maybe a meal. The river gods (and boating buds) must be appeased.
|
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2009 at 11:46pm
|
All the semantics can be pushed to the side, if..... ' Lewis' will reveal himself? Doubtful as that is, I do enjoy the companionship that comes at the take out when a person, or a few have swam. It is a common point that all kayakers have in common. Place the style, ability, prefence, and posturing aside, we all swim now and again. Some less than others, some more, but it is a bonding moment for the trip, to know that you paddle with good people, that have your back and you have theirs. There ain't a damn thing wrong with a good swim now and again. I'd love to swim out of my kayak tomorrow.
I honestly believe it is a debrief, or detox, how ever you see it.
Now... "Will the real Slim Lewis, Please stand up"? ------------- Sure? |
Posted By: STLboater
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2009 at 7:45am
|
I took my first "swim" on the truss this season. I rolled up in the cave and my skirt was off and my boat half full of water. However, i went off the lip of big brother a little crooked which probably caused my skirt to blow. I stayed in the boat, and didn't get out for 5 minutes until i was next to the shore, at which point i hopped out and grabbed my boat. I messed up, my swim.
------------- Kayak Academy Whitewater Instructor |
Posted By: tradguy2
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2009 at 12:38pm
|
There is one person I can think of who is notably absent from this discussion. I wonder if he is Lewis?
------------- ... preparing for a river beating! |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2009 at 1:57pm
|
In the picture above, I posed for that shot. I jumped in the river with my boat and they took my picture for fun. It has haunted me ever since....
------------- Nomad |
Posted By: SupaSta
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2009 at 4:56pm
|
Originally posted by dave In the picture above, I posed for that shot. .... Whatever dude.  Just own-up to it already   ------------- Life is short, paddle hard! |
Posted By: tradguy2
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2009 at 10:30am
|
Hmmm. "Lewis" is still conspicuously absent from this thread. ------------- ... preparing for a river beating! |
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2009 at 1:10pm
|
Originally posted by tradguy2
Hmmm. "Lewis" is still conspicuously absent from this thread. In my eternal effort to alway be fair, I cannot divulge the identity of 'Lewis" but I will be happy to answer questions that can be answered with 'plausable denyability'
I will give a hint to the identity of 'Tiny Tim' - he has an abnormally small head for a grown man!
Cheers ------------- Sure? |
Posted By: Fish
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2009 at 1:31pm
|
As the person who rescued "lewis" I believe that our tradition is good and just. The River Gods demand that justice prevail here. The nectar of the booty must be consumed, if wine is needed, then so be it, by this point he probably owes a wine barrel worth anyway. One could conclude, that because the booty is always neglected by this particular person, swims will happen more often to him as a result. Obey tradition! Bottoms up! ------------- |
Posted By: tradguy2
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2009 at 1:57pm
|
Thanks for confirming the identity of "Lewis" in code Fish! ------------- ... preparing for a river beating! |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2009 at 7:19pm
|
So was that what happened... Lewis Ran over Dave in BD... http://professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7758 - http://professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7758 Its all making sense now!!!! |
Posted By: shrek
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2009 at 4:14pm
| Weird. |
Posted By: 14kayaking2
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2009 at 9:19pm
|
ok ok..... I gots to weigh in on this one.... There is no depth of water that can be called a NON swim. So if your skirt is pulled.... either by you or other natural factors.... CONGRATS.... you swam!!! matter of fact..... even if you don't have a skirt and are using a canoe, or a IK and you fall out in ankle deep, you are swimming. Ankle deep....2" deep, 100' deep.... you exit boat... you swimming! Some people love to swim.... I tend to call them dangerous...or maybe just masochistic.... Then there are others like Michael Phelps who could prolly happily swim some really nasty stuff.... Still I would personally consider that dangerous/borderline masochistic. I myself think that if you have not swam in class III water then maybe you should consider doing it. REALLY. When was the last time you swam a class III rapid? it's actually quite exhilarating, even kinda fun. OK....so if you are getting out of your boat....slip, and fall in the water..... you don't owe booty beer, and maybe you didn't even swim(unless you had to paddle to make it to shore....cause then you were swimming). Some people purposefully jump off high rocks to swim. OK....so.... Booty beer..... Hmmm, if you have a fungal anomaly on your feet....maybe booty beer is not a good idea for you. In fact, what I suggest for someone like that is to carry an extra booty that is clean...... Otherwise... I am a fan of the booty gods getting what they need. I got a great game based on this actually. Lastly, sorry James...but you know how much I like beating on dead horses(there are some old posts about it...kinda morbid actually). AND.....I am going to change my signature to better reflect my feelings after this article. "we are only boaters between swimms" Matty ------------- "We are only boaters between swims" Matty |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 12:08am
|
What if your surfin a wave and another guy pulls your skirt and pushes the tip of your boat down? |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 8:52am
Like thats what happened.....  I think it was more like a WWF ring on the old BHW... and I am pretty sure we both qualified for a bootie beer that day!!! Ahh the good old days |
Posted By: franzhorner
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 10:04am
|
Originally posted by 14kayaking2 ok ok..... I gots to weigh in on this one.... I myself think that if you have not swam in class III water then maybe you should consider doing it. REALLY. When was the last time you swam a class III rapid? it's actually quite exhilarating, even kinda fun. I agree! I like to swim Shovel Spur on the Upper Skagit (S-turns). We should all swim more!!! ------------- MORE RAIN PLEASE |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2009 at 11:36pm
| Hey James, I was just posing a "what if?" Not like anything like that would ever happen. But that was some good WWF action on the BHW. |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2009 at 9:13am
|
Hey Larry, I thought I would chime in. I will never forget the time you should have swam on the Skook when you were stuck out there surfing...you were like a cage fighter out there! I didn't even know you were stuck on the wave, I thought you were doing all that on purpose!!!! ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: James
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2009 at 3:07pm
|
I would not want to re-enact the whole debauckle but it is still funny to re-call that day... What a bunch of goons we are!!! And quite honestly after a stunt like that if someone pushed me into the river right from the bank... I would say I owe a booty beer for that too!!!!  King of the Wave!!!!
|
Posted By: 14kayaking2
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2009 at 6:45pm
|
So.... If you fall into the water getting out.... yep you are swimming, but I don't think that counts as booty beer. And...even if you self rescue...... you owe the booty gods. Long live foot fungus! ------------- "We are only boaters between swims" Matty |