Our broken society
Printed From: ProfessorPaddle.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Whitewater Forum
Forum Discription: Open Discussion Forum. Whitewater related subjects only
URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8072
Printed Date: 19 May 2025 at 4:08pm
Topic: Our broken society
Posted By: arnobarno
Subject: Our broken society
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 5:39pm
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Look, I feel for the guy in this story but...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009058259_webbikewreck16m.html - http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009058259_webbikewreck16m.html You don't need to look beyond this story for reasons why we lose access; pay ridiculous fees for insurance and don't have people who are willing to lead trips. I recall a post a few weeks ago about portaging on private land and people wondering why landowners are concerned? Well, this is why. And, this guy was not a casual cyclist - he was serious - read about what he was training for. ------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address) |
Replies:
Posted By: PowWrangler
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 6:10pm
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While I think there needs to be legitimate means to punish people and corporations for recklessness, this obviously goes above and beyond that. Whatever happened to reasonable and prudent? |
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 7:42pm
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What ever happened to personal accountability?
Is the governing body resposible for your ability to judge your environment? Do you expect them to provide you a safe habitat that offers no risk?
At what point do we sack up and accept responsibility for ourselves?
If we have the expectation that the government will protect us, doesn't that mean socialism? If they are making choices and accepting responsibility for our actions, aren't we just tools?
This makes my brain SAD! Is the government resposible for a moved rock, due to flooding in a river and that an injury sustained by a paddler that wasn't aware of the change is their responsibility?
Does that person have the right to sue and in effect reduce our liberties because they are dumb as a box of rox? Do they expect others to to wipe their boo boo for them?
If I am an 'an endurance athlete' that is a 'A Navy veteran, he bicycled daily from his home in Seattle's Fremont district to the energy firm where he worked in Issaquah.'
One would expect that he posessed the ability to navigate 'Novelty Hill Road as a bike route but failed to maintain it in a safe condition' did he expect flying monkeys to pave the path in gold and ultra smooth surface prior to his arrival? WTF? I feel for his family and honestly care how they are fairing, however?
The accident occurred while on a longer training ride with friends.
Did any of his friends crash? or did he just suck?
It sounds like his wife (see money grubbing woman) (see an oportunity to get 'paid' while her hubby sits like a veggie and she gets a couch purses and a pedi.)
It is not the system that is the proplem, it is the particiapants! ------------- Sure? |
Posted By: dave
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 7:43pm
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So, since our rivers in King County are open to Kayaking we could sue them if we get hurt? This dosent make sense, I though you assumed the risk while ridding, just like driving a car. ------------- Nomad |
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 7:49pm
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oh and, yep, I am the pot stirrer.
------------- Sure? |
Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 8:04pm
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If I had to guess, I'd say he was probably flying down novelty hill road a wee bit too fast. I wonder why the county settled so easily, the article didn't mention a trial. This is why taxes are so high in this county.
------------- |
Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 8:06pm
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I am going to sue the city of Cashmere, who clearly promotes whitewater kayaking, next time I roll and get water up my nose. Economic damages, Pain and Suffering, and Putative damages comes to $1.47, I think.... ------------- |
Posted By: SupaSta
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 10:12pm
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Oy!
I fell off my bike once and scuffed my knee real bad. I ain't never been the same. I needs my $3.5mil.
Sad state of affairs when people can justify this kind of highway robbery. ------------- Life is short, paddle hard! |
Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 10:53pm
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The frightening thing is that generally, a settlement comes in lieu of a jury trial when defense council believes the (jury award)x(probability of plaintif winning)>(settlement). I'd like to think that Ron Sim's henchmen weren't simply lazy. ------------- |
Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 6:48am
| just to play devil's advocate here, you could sue the city for damages to your car that occur from poor road conditions, and you could also sue for any injuries you sustained if you got into an accident as a result of those conditions. as for injuries on the river, not the same thing since the city does not construct and maintain rivers. a playpark on a river could be a different story. now, whether the guy deserved 3.5 million, I dont know, but if I was faced with a lifetime of ongoing medical care, I would be pretty pissed off. I would think the county wouldnt just bend over if they thought they were going to win. just sayin'. |
Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 6:51am
| oh, and to Tobin, I doubt the wife is going to be going out and buying purses. She is likely going to be signing checks for medical care while changing her husband's diapers, making him meals, etc. For the rest of his life. |
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 7:41am
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If you read the article, it states that they settled for an amount that is less than would have been requested if it had gone to trial.
I understand the plight of the wife and yes it is a shame, however, is it our responsibility to pay for it?
3.5 million is far more than most of us will earn in a lifetime (unless your Leif, then it takes a week)
I personally have been injured a large number of times in my and have never blamed anyone else for what happened.
It is exactly the same as the dumb ass woman that sued McDonalds because she spilled coffee on herself.
Personel Accountability!
Natural Selection has been eliminated, but maybe it should come back?
Ellingferd,
Honestly, I don't care! Show me how this is any way my fault or problem? She is a money grubber and worked the system to get paid because her hubby is a dumb ass.
Cheers ------------- Sure? |
Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 7:57am
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There is no doubt this is a personal tragedy for the guy and very sad. That said, the basis of the case (at least what is reported) is that the county was negligent because this road appeared as a stated bike route and the county didn't do enough to maintain it in a proper way. I ride all over the region and in fact, have ridden many times on Novelty Hill as I have a biking buddy that lives just off that road. He was riding westbound (downhill) at the time of the accident and you can really fly on that road if you want to (and I have). But, like any road, there are tons of hazards everywhere. Maybe there was gross negligence here - I didn't see the specific spot - but it defies credibility to believe that the reason he chose this road was because of an endorsement by the government about its safety or upkeep. Where this leads is more stupid lawsuits - I can only imagine a lawsuit associated with the new "sharrow" markings on the road and the implicit endorsement of the government that this is where to share the road with big cars (like Leif's F45000). It leads to more stupid signs (caution: http://www.funny-junk.co.cc/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/caution-water-on-road-during-rain-serious-yet-funny.jpg - water on road during rain ) and less access (remember when they closed the Green and other rivers last year). ------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address) |
Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 8:19am
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In actuality the real issue here is the fact that the guy had to sue to cover his medical expenses, because they are going to be so high for the rest of his life. Regardless of whether or not it was right for him to get the money, the only way for him to get the care he needs is to have money, and I am sure that the majority of people would do the exact same thing this guy did if they were in the same position. Despite the fact that the couple would have asked for more if the case went to trial, the city must have thought there was a good chance the guy would have won, hence the settlement. And, to add to that, it isnt like they just cut a check from the King county budget that says "from the taxpayers to you, 3.5 million" there is insurance, etc involved here.
Finally, I agree our society is broken. This guy should have been able to get medical care without a lawsuit, just like anyone who gets hurt should be able to have medical care as in most other civilized nations in the world. I am sure some of you will come back at this with "oh, blah blah, not as good of health care, blah blah, socialism, blah blah" and the myriad of other lame arguments against having a nation that takes care of its consituent's medical needs regardless of the cause. However, our society is broken in another, much more subversive way. The fact that two people are judged so swiftly and resolutely based upon an article in The Seattle Times, a rag of a newspaper at best, shows a complete lack of compassion and ability to empathize with another human being in a pretty tragic situation. Imagine not being able to take care of yourself for the rest of your life. The rest of your life. Think about it. Pause. Stop reading. Think about it. No more going to the store, restaurants, the river, the gym, the movies. No more being able to communicate in a normal way with anyone. Being isolated from society.
I may be getting a little too deep, but to call the wife a money grubber, and the husband a dumb ass without ever having met them, and to have others agree with that, is pretty lame. There are people who look at you and what you do, and call you a dumb ass with the same emphasis. We are all just inches away from an injury like this when we engage in outdoor pursuits, literally and figuratively.
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Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 8:34am
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Ellingferd, You are wandering down a pretty slippery slope here. I didn't want to turn this into a discussion about health care costs and who should pay for them. But, let's wander there a little, since you brought it up, but keep it on the topic of kayaking (and other outdoor pursuits) which is the reason I posted this article in the first place. If you further socialize health care, society may (rightly?) start to ask questions about the behaviors you are engaging in and then make judgments about whether you can participate in those things. Smoking, eating bacon cheeseburgers, bicycling, kayaking Robe Canyon, you-name-it could all be judged too risky for society to pay for and those become forbidden activities. ------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address) |
Posted By: SupaSta
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 8:45am
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Originally posted by Ellingferd ... The fact that two people are judged so swiftly and resolutely based upon an article in The Seattle Times, a rag of a newspaper at best, shows a complete lack of compassion and ability to empathize with another human being in a pretty tragic situation... . I disagree. I believe they are rightfully being judged for not taking responsibility for their actions. It's really sad that this family's lives have been changed forever, and I think many of us would help in some way if asked (even if it was just to send a few bucks to a charity fund for them). But it really ticks us off when they use the stupid court system to literally steal money from the taxpayers for a situation caused by the guy. The high road would have been to ask for help and live with what they got. The low road is to sue and get paid. They chose the low road and they deserve our scorn for it. They whole idea that the road is not properly maintained is ridiculous. I live off that road, and it's an average road (and in fantastic condition compared to what you would find anywhere else in the world). I see bikers screaming down that road on a regular basis and I always wonder what would happen if they made a mistake. Now I know - the county gets the blame and we pay $3.5mil. Lame. Dan ------------- Life is short, paddle hard! |
Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 8:54am
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To split hairs, I am not wandering down the slippery slope. My argument was that the US should adopt a system of universal health care. But extrapolating universal heath care to mean regualtion of outdoor pursuits in the future is a slippery slope. My argument stops at providing universal health care just as other nations do. As a side note, the UK has universal health care, and has yet to impose restrictions on the activities of its citizens. My argument has been carried to another level by you and you are wandering out onto the slippery slope by arguing against it on the basis that universal health care will lead to quetions and possible restrictions on other risky activities.
I am talking about socializing health care, thats it. I am not talking about everyone going to the commisary for breakfast, getting their chocolate ration, and then working on the railroad in matching worksuits with a bar code on the back. We can have health care for everyone and end it there. That is what I am talking about. The inherent characteristic of risky activity is that very few people take part in these risky activities, and even fewer of those few get injured.
Oh, and to anyone who feels tempted, dont waste your time suggesting I move to one of those other countries that provides universal health care.
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Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 8:58am
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Dan, Scorn and calling someone a dumb ass and money grubber are two totally different things.
Jonathan
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Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 9:08am
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Ellingferd, Perhaps you are correct that further socializing health care will not lead to restrictions on risky activities. After all, most doctors, and society in general, realize that young, otherwise healthy, organ donors have to come from somewhere ;-) Still, I am more cynical (in general) and see these types of lawsuits as the camel's nose under the tent to restricting an individuals right to happiness because the usual result of these lawsuits are further restrictions on activities. If you do a google search on this news story, you will already find this news article on many websites of personal injury lawyers looking to drum up more business. ------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address) |
Posted By: tradguy2
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 9:31am
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Remember, a jury did not award this, King County settled. My last job exposed me to the inner workings of several lawsuits involving liability and climbing. I found out that more often than not, these "frivolous" lawsuits are won by the defense. Apparently Americans are so frustratred by these lawsuits that they usually find in favor of the defense.
The problem is that the small percentage of cases that go the other way get so much press that companies and government agencies are afriad of the big judgement so they agree to settle. ------------- ... preparing for a river beating! |
Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 10:08am
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One Word: Aflac I don't understand why there is the suggestion here that we need yet another government program. How would socialized medicine fix this? Socialized medicine is not a disability program; socialized medicine doesn't fix roads. We already have a program in place for this very situation: Social Security Disability. Why is there always a suggestion that government must do more when there are already programs in place. Like Kennedy Said: "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." When government provides things for free (like healthcare), it creates an artificially high supply coupled with flat or even lowered supply. This creates lengthy waiting times. It can take months for elective surgery in Canada, and I have heard it is not unusual to wait six months for routine dental care in the UK. Socialized medicine creates more issues than it solves because it removes personal responsibility from the equation. People must take responsibility for their own care. Go out, buy insurance. Take responsibility. Don’t expect Obama to do it for you. Our country was based on the idea of the free pursuit of our own happiness, unencumbered by government. Mr. Totten was doing just that: pursuing his happiness in his own way. He shouldn't expect government to intervene in his pursuit, in any way, at any time. ------------- |
Posted By: Sisu
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 11:37am
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I certainly believe in personal accountability, but on the other hand, I don’t know what I would do if I was completely f—ked up in an accident that was partly or even mostly my own fault, and happened to occur on a county bike trail, and I hope I never have to find out. I also hope that none of you have to find out what you would do in that circumstance either. Here’s what I do know: I know I’m not going to think badly of this unfortunate guy or his family, and I know these points about Point 1: RCW 4.22.005, entitled “Effect of Contributory Fault reads as follows: In an action based on fault seeking to recover damages for injury or death to person or harm to property, any contributory fault chargeable to the claimant diminishes proportionately the amount awarded as compensatory damages for an injury attributable to the claimant's contributory fault, but does not bar recovery. This rule applies whether or not under prior law the claimant's contributory fault constituted a defense or was disregarded under applicable legal doctrines, such as last clear chance. What this means is that contributory negligence by the injured person is not a bar to recovery in this state, but may reduce an award proportionally. See also RCW 4.22.070. For example, if the rider was 65% responsible for his accident and the County was 35% responsible due to this maintenance issue with the trail, and everyone agrees that it will take $10 million to care for this relatively young brain injured rider for the rest of his life, the County pays $3.5 million. If you disagree with this comparative negligence system, you should write to your representatives in Point 2: Municipal entities like Point 3: It sounds like this guy’s injuries will outstrip his personal ability, and his family’s ability to pay for his care, and will probably use up his personal insurance. Then what does the county or state do with him? He becomes, by virtue of his injuries, what is sometimes called an “indigent ward of the state.” He is dependent on the state for his medical care and perhaps also housing, food etc. He cannot work and pay taxes. So, you can put him in a state facility, or you can give his legal guardian sufficient funds to assist his family in providing his care. If you are his family, which option do you prefer? Which option is ultimately cheaper for the state? Limiting it to these two examples is an oversimplification, but you get the idea. The system is imperfect, but that is how the legislature has decided to deal with this type of situation. In sum, I don’t fault the guy or his family for filing this lawsuit, and I’m sure they would give back the money in exchange for his pre-accident function. Do any of you wish to trade places with him? |
Posted By: arnobarno
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 11:57am
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John, Great thoughtful analysis. I certainly appreciate the legal perspective and of course, no one wants to trade places with this guy. And, who knows which option is ultimately cheaper for the state. I also have no idea how you assign contributory negligence in a situation like this. And, I agree that receiving $$$ for medical care is fundamentally different than "jackpot" judgments. Still, I'll stand by my original point. Which is, that these types of lawsuits ultimately limit access to recreational opportunities. What do you think will be the county's response to this? Will they fix every pothole that can cause damage to a bike (this was on a regular surface road, not a specific bike trail)? Will they force cyclists to buy a license (perhaps license money goes to pay for insurance or judgments)? Will they outlaw bicycle riding on roads? Will they put up stupid signs everywhere saying that there are uneven surfaces everywhere and bicycle riding is dangerous? Will everyone who falls as a result of a crack in the sidewalk start to file lawsuits? Many organizations have fought hard to try to increase the number of bicycle lanes and dedicated bike trails in the county. IMHO, this type of lawsuit and settlement will make politicians more cautious - but not in the direction of ensuring they "do the right thing" with respect to maintenance - rather it will be more useless "disclosure" and more restrictions. ------------- arn9schaeffer@gmail.com (remove 9 for my real email address) |
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 1:33pm
 If this person got hurt could they sue the car maker?
Or the owner of the car?
------------- Sure? |
Posted By: franzhorner
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 1:46pm
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So...... Political Rant knowing Lief is a good sport: I suppose that you aren't for "Big Government".... So much of what the conservative movement is based on is the thinking that if you are poor or can't afford health insurance or can't pay for your child care then you must not be respnosible. They think that ANYONE in the US should be able to be rich and enjoy health care and freedom if they get smart and work hard. If you don't have what you need to stay healthy and safe then its you own damn fault. Tough crap buddy you deserve to be poor without healthcare and I don't because I work and earn money. What I don't understand is how big does the government have to be before a conservative labels it a "big" government. The way the tea-baggers are acting its as if they are anarchists. No matter what we spend on the military they never consider that spending as part of the problem. Give money to poor people and its a waste in their book. Good thing most of these folks believe in the forgiveness of sins..... It must really suck to be a Republican right now and realize that you have no seat at the table. I like watching those people make idiots of themsleves with their crying about "socialism". Some are even calling Obama a Fascisst!!! Ha ha!! That is hilarious!! Obama's tax plan includes allowing the tax breaks for the richest American to expire. This would make their rates almost as high as they were during the worshipped Ronald Reagan administration. Many many conservatives consider the 50's as the Camelot of moral and social times in America. The tax rate for the wealthiest Americans then was over 90%. I just don't get what they are crying about with the cries of " Big Government" and over taxation. I will bet you not many of the top 3% of money earners in America weren't out there protesting!! They were taxed more by Reagan!!!! Absurd!!! ------------- MORE RAIN PLEASE |
Posted By: franzhorner
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 1:48pm
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I think the car woner should be able to sue the boater. To add
good measure any nearby land owners should make sure that no one can
portage around that thing.
------------- MORE RAIN PLEASE |
Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 1:50pm
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My political ideology hasn't had a seat at the table for 21 years...
------------- |
Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 1:55pm
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Wow.
I agree with Arno & Tobin about the Personal Responsibility.
I agree with Ellingferd about the need for socialized medicine, although as Leif pointed out it's hard to imagine how that would help in this scenerio, but it may help more than our current system allows.
--Great legal information, Sisu-- Clearly it's a big complex mess and it's hard to say which outcomes would leave the county coffers better off while still helping out this unfortunate guy and his wife. --I have compassion for him, and society should be strong enough to help him out in someway. But right now it isn't. It's bogged down by a failed economy that has been looted by the greedy and corrupt, the powerfull and already rich who have an insatiable appetite for more and more wealth. No wonder there's no money for public transit or health care.
But it's hard to imagine how the county is responsible for his accident, and that's a real sticking point for me. Yeah, one way or another he's f--ked up now, and needs to be cared for, and will likely impact society's collective pocketbook as a result. It just sucks that the court systems can be leveraged in this way to assign blame to an entire county that is too big to sit on that bicycle and ride it for him.
Here's where I have to point the finger at a party only briefly mentioned: the newspaper. That article offered NO INFORMATION OF VALUE WHATSOEVER!! From what I can tell, all it served to do was rile up people of strong opinions, without informing them adequately about the situation. It only serves to piss people off, who basicly know their tax dollars are already wasted beyond belief. It doesn't offer any solutions or insites to the big picture.
So- how does this affect our pursuit of happiness in the context of running rivers? You know how I feel about this, and how I was treated after a certain swim I had on a certain river that happened to have a lot of water in it at the time.(handcuffs)
Socialism or capitalism--it doesn't MATTER! Either way the system is and will be so bloated that it's doomed to crumple under its own weight. You guys worry about socialized medicine encroaching on your rights to paddle? The Insurance companies in our current system already do a great job of limiting who they'll provide health care for. They have our whole health care system held hostage.
When boating is outlawed, only outlaws will boat. ------------- 🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋 |
Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 2:05pm
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Tobin--what's up with that photo and where did you get it? some background-- that's rad! Of all of the rivers I've run and adventures i've had, I've never had the opportunity to boof a partially submerged automobile!
Whatever-- yeah, the "teabaggers" may be able to be labled as "anarchists" (I doubt half of them know what "teabagging" is or what the F--- is really going on around them)
I wish more Americans would own up to how anarchistic they really are. Franz, if you knowingly decide to poach someone's private property, you are in effect engaging in an anarchist act. This goes to YOU, too, Leafy Boy! (refering to your recent MM trip).
Same thing when you run a red light. People who selectively follow rules when it suits them and break them when they don't are at the very least mild anarchists. ------------- 🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋 |
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 2:26pm
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JP,
A buddy sent it to me, it is in Idaho, not sure the river just that it is at Jucer hole? any ideas?
I think the underlying tone is that personal responsibility is needed and the idea that you are accountable for your actions.
I am sure that I could have filed suit and won against a large number of people in my life, BUT, I enjoy being a self sufficient, semi mature person that is accountable for my actions.
Is the health care system really the problem?
Isn't that just more of the same, expecting someone to take care of you?
Freakin Lemmings! ------------- Sure? |
Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 2:34pm
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The health care system is a whole other problem, but it's related I suppose. At the root of it though, we have shaped an absurd society where you cna sue anyone for anything. It's wastefull, expensive, and restrictive. ------------- 🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋 |
Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 3:39pm
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What concerns me is the thought that the lawsuit was based on the claim that King County showed that road on their website, etc. as a bike route. Using the same logic, a kayaker could have an accident on a river and sue American whitewater because their website listed the river as a run. "They didn't say there was a log on the left side of the 11th rapid, so it's their fault I hit it". A single lawsuit of this proportion could ruin AW and all it does for us. That would really suck. |
Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 6:32pm
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No kidding a socialized health care system wouldnt fix the roads. It would, however, prevent the need for a lawsuit for a lifetime of medical expenses for people like this guy who might not be totally entitled to 3.5 million, but need to pay for things anyway. Yeah, you could say that he could have taken the high road and asked for donations, but 3.5 million proabably isnt going to cover the expenses this guy is going to have for life, so I dont think a bake sale would have cut it either. |
Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 6:35pm
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And to Joes, it is not the same logic. Rivers are not built and maintained as ways of transportation by the state.
In order for your argument to follow, the city would have to build a river, and then advertise it as a waterway for transportation. But then that would open up a whole other can of worms.
The liability falls on the city in this case because they built the road, maintained it, and claimed it as a bike route. If they had gotten rid of the bike route designation, the case would have a lot less power.
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Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2009 at 7:08pm
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Again, albeit imperfectly, SSI and Medicare already solves this specific problem. Don't make new Government programs, use the ones you have. ------------- |
Posted By: top pin
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 12:02am
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Thats juicer rapid on the North Fork of the Payette. Solid CL V. That boof rocks!!! Got any more pics of that? |
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 12:11am
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I can get more!
I love when kayak porn overrides politico bs
Thanks for naming the river! Was the truck there when you ran it?
1 ------------- Sure? |
Posted By: JoesKayak
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 7:57am
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Originally posted by Ellingferd And to Joes, it is not the same logic. Rivers are not built and maintained as ways of transportation by the state. In order for your argument to follow, the city would have to build a river, and then advertise it as a waterway for transportation. But then that would open up a whole other can of worms.
The liability falls on the city in this case because they built the road, maintained it, and claimed it as a bike route. If they had gotten rid of the bike route designation, the case would have a lot less power. Oh really? The state doesn't build rivers? You missed the whole real point of my post. My example of someone suing AW is not an exact replica of what happened to the biker... however there's enough similarities that I could imagine a similar lawsuit happening against AW or some other paddling club or guidebook writer or paddling website. And that would really suck. Too many lawsuits are screwing up this country. It would be nice if we could take care of people like this guy without having a huge lawsuit being leveled against the taxpayers. Whenever someone sues a government agency, it's us picking up the tab. Plus your facts aren't straight anyway. The lawsuit wasn't against a city or the state, it was against King County. |
Posted By: jondufay
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 9:42am
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Originally posted by leifkirchoff
One Word: Aflac When government provides things for free (like healthcare), it creates an artificially high supply coupled with flat or even lowered supply. This creates lengthy waiting times. It can take months for elective surgery in Canada, and I have heard it is not unusual to wait six months for routine dental care in the UK. Socialized medicine creates more issues than it solves because it removes personal responsibility from the equation. People must take responsibility for their own care. Go out, buy insurance. Take responsibility. Don’t expect Obama to do it for you. James,
care to chime in here and relate the tails of your shoulder...oh yeah, our system of HMO's is great. How many referals did you have to get? what was the wait time? ------------- ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating... |
Posted By: jondufay
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 9:43am
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tales of your shoulder (sorry, no edit feature) ------------- ahh, f--- it dude, lets go boating... |
Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 10:01am
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I would assume James has moved insurance carriers from Group Health. Group Health has a horrible reputation. Not all HMOs are bad, I hear good things about Kaiser.
I have Regence (individual PPO plan), and have had an excellent experience with them. ------------- |
Posted By: 14kayaking2
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 11:44am
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I think it is ridiculous that anyone can sue for things like that. I call it pathetic. The guy made his choices, had an accident, and decided to be pathetic, bought a good lawyer (Washington is one of highest litigious states in the country), and managed to win. Yet another point of our failing judicial system if you ask me. Big Bear resort in California closed it's doors due to litigation too. Also....the road ride he was doing wasn't a race, it is a festival of sorts. like Ragbri....
------------- "We are only boaters between swims" Matty |
Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 12:59pm
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Yeah it's stupid. The thing is I'm not bothered as much by the concept of society ponying up $$ for his tradgedy so much as the whole idea of him pointing the finger and saying "YOU! It's YOUR fault I got MYSELF hurt!", and all the money we spend just hearing the B.S. in court. And all the money some lawyers get to make off of it.
--Yeah Leif, it's great that YOU can afford medical care.
--I don't think Juicer is a class V rapid. Tasted more like class IV+ to me. I sure as hell didn't see any SUV to boof last fall when I was there, otherwise you bet your baby's sports bra I'd have boofed the sh** out of it!!
Although when I saw the photo Tobin posted, that was the rapid that came to mind. Perhaps because of an article I saw in Paddler Mag that showed somebody's Subaru in the bottom of Juicer with boats tied on the roof! Not the same vehicle though. What is it about "Juicer" that ends up sucking cars and SUVs into it? Maybe it IS class V! ------------- 🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋 |
Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 3:00pm
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I pay $130 per month.
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Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 3:27pm
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Joes, nice use of the red herring. You are correct, it was the county and not the city. I mean that really blew my argument apart. |
Posted By: rayw
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 5:58pm
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I hear stories like these and always consider the quality of life. I hope my family would have the good sense to say, "he had a good run, pull the plug!" seven months in a coma just to be a bed bound veg the rest of my life? no thank you. did anyone else notice the wife had a different last name? maybe she didn't assume his, but five bucks says she has moved on since she dumped the hubby in some assisted living facility. It scares me to think of what it would be like if our country went down the road of socialized health care. the systems we have are so misused now. |
Posted By: 14kayaking2
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 7:03pm
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Wetmouse, I agree, I think we should be able to shoot some SOB like
that. I know that my parents/family would never EVER let something
like that come to pass... come to think of it, my mom would disown me
for trying to sue after I hurt myself. I wish Americans could actually
blame themselves for something rather than someone else. I am sorry
that these people have hurt themselves, but the fact of the matter is
if you are doing some activity (regardless), you should take the
responsibility for any accident that is caused by you. I mean if you
are running and you trip over a stick, that is your dumb ass fault.
Granted, bikes shouldn't break, etc. however whenever we pick up an
activity one should know that it is not a question of if you should
fall....it is WHEN YOU FALL..... So pony up and don't sue for stupid
shit. In other countries that would have been laughed out of court,
but not in this sue happy country. Another point.... The Downhill mountain biking that was closed from big bear was caused by a sue happy husband after his wife died there. However it happened at a race, she was a professional, and EVERYONE knew that the jumps were to close together and so slowing down for them was required. She didn't, cased the front of the second set of doubles and broke her neck. Hubby said that the jumps were built wrong....which given the line in....yeah they were to close together and too poppy, but everyone knew it and she SHOULD have ridden the course appropriately. Everyone had to slam the brakes before them, so in reality she was going to fast for conditions, something that should be considered her fault, not theirs. One last thing..... NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING, it just makes an ASS out of U and ME. ------------- "We are only boaters between swims" Matty |
Posted By: 14kayaking2
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 7:06pm
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oooh oooh.... forgot..... to finish the story about Big Bear closing it's doors.... HE didn't come up with the idea to sue them, some lawyer came to him and said he could make him a lot of money for his pain. I would bet that something similar may have happened in the Street riding case up here, TOO MANY LAWYERS.... Seriously, what are we teaching people when our TV ads talk about... "MAKE THEM PAY!" my god, we are breeding retarded, lazy, fat, boring, lemmings, no wonder America is the laughing stock of the world. ------------- "We are only boaters between swims" Matty |