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Wiggins
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  Quote Wiggins Replybullet Topic: Palm Neck Gasket Replacement
    Posted: 19 Sep 2011 at 10:37pm
I have a Palm drysuit that I bought for my ex to use. Since we broke up it has not seen much use, and has had little TLC. A friend of mine is going to borrow it for a winter Grand Canyon trip and I am not sure I trust the neck gasket to last 18 days on the water.

I have replaced this gasket before using the road cone method, but I much prefer the flat gluing method that Kokatat uses on their neck gaskets. If I undid the stitching and the seam tape on the Palm suit's gasket could I glue the replacement onto the the suit fabric? If so what type of glue should I use?

Anyone tried this?

Thanks,

Kyle
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Dale
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  Quote Dale Replybullet Posted: 20 Sep 2011 at 7:37am
Note: I'm not familiar with the construction of Palm drysuits but that doesn't keep me from opining, does it?

First, if it isn't broken, it can't be fixed. Look the gasket over good by stretching a reasonable amount and looking over the stretched gasket inch by inch. Are there any cracks or other signs of damage? Is it sticky or gooey? If so, replace it. If not, I wouldn't worry about it.

If the stitching is good and the old gasket is still firmly attached to the top, I would not remove it. Cut it close to the fabric and glue the new gasket to the old gasket, using AquaSeal by McNett. Remember, there is a hole at every stitch point. How many holes is that total? If everything is firmly attached, this is all pretty strong, but if you remove the stitching and old gasket, you now have to make sure all those tiny holes are patched.

As for the "flat" vs the "cone" method, some tops, like my Kokatat drytop, have a flat mating surface for the gasket, vs a cone shaped mating surface such as my MountainSurf drydecks have. Use the method that matches your neck gasket surface.

This also means that there are 2 basic types of gaskets. Flat vs cone shaped. Which is yours? Yes, I've put cone shaped gaskets on flat tops and flat gaskets on cone shaped tops and it works... it just doesn't look very good(though, well hidden) and it's not quite as easy a job with a non matching gasket. Ridiculous, I know, but sometimes you work with what you've got.

There are several good tutorials on line. As mentioned at the beginning, you don't necessarily want to remove the old gasket, though some of these tutorials will show you how.

Walden's Ridge has what appears to be the flat gaskets for cheap, as well as a tutorial.   http://waldensridgewhitewater.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=24

A couple other links:

http://www.kokatat.com/media/pdfs/KokatatNeckgasketWO.pdf

http://www.bckayaker.com/gasket/index.html

Gasket aside, you may also want to check the whole suit to make sure it doesn't have any leaks. Block the gaskets, fill it with air then spray it with water or maybe a weak soapy solution. A small, very thin dab of AquaSeal is good for most holes. I'd be surprised if there were not one or two small holes, as, mine almost always have them. Danged sticker bushes.

Note: The last time I replaced the gasket on my drytop, I made the mistake of treating it first. This buggered up my repair job pretty well. I ended up redoing this 3 times in 2 weeks before it stuck good enough to use. Basically, if you're going to wash and treat the suit for water resistance, do it AFTER the gasket repair.

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Dale
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  Quote Dale Replybullet Posted: 20 Sep 2011 at 7:39am
err... I need a little help with the links.
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brig
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  Quote brig Replybullet Posted: 20 Sep 2011 at 10:27am
Originally posted by Dale

:


If the stitching is good and the old gasket is still firmly attached to the top, I would not remove it. Cut it close to the fabric and glue the new gasket to the old gasket, using AquaSeal by McNett.


This.....
I've replaced several this way and it works fine. Make a template...one full circle to go inside the dry top neck and two semi-circles that you will sandwich the gasket between to let it dry/cure overnight. Clamps are best, any hardware store will have them...
http://www.amazon.com/3-75-Muslin-Clamps-Pack-6/dp/B0019SHZU0
Chris B.
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Wiggins
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  Quote Wiggins Replybullet Posted: 21 Sep 2011 at 1:20am
I would normally replace the gasket with a like one, but since the suit is mostly being used as a loaner on multiday runs, field expedient forms for the cone method can be hard to come by and the one I have at home is bulkier than I want to carry, and I have a flat gluing form for my Kokatat suit already that stows in my gear pretty easily I want to switch this one out.

This gasket is going to fail. This is the second gasket I have put on the suit and the glue is starting to release in addition to the gasket having a couple of rough spots.

I am not worried about the stitching holes as they will be on either under the gasket and glue where they won't leak, or inside the inner edge of the gasket where it is dry.

Kyle
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justin
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  Quote justin Replybullet Posted: 21 Sep 2011 at 7:57am
You could make a form out of outfitting foam, and use a strap to hold it till it dries.
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Dale
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  Quote Dale Replybullet Posted: 21 Sep 2011 at 9:14am
For forms, I usually try to use what is at hand.

For cone type tops I have used cooking pots, round plastic bottles and yes, even road cones. It helps if it fits kinda tight and is solid.

For flat forms, I've used a combination of serving platters, dinner plates, plywood, ect...

It would be easy to make the forms that can be purchased commercially. If I did more than 1 or 2 gaskets a year, I would fashion something similar to what is commercially available, but, so far, I have just makeshifted as necessary.

Foam is pretty expensive and not as solid as I would like a form to be, though, it would probably work. I tape the edges of the gaskets tight to the material with ducktape, which works pretty well.

My little rant about the stitching has deep roots in my person dislike of sewing. I've had to do it professionally and I'm not very good at it. I tend to stick myself, causing the magic fluid to spill everywhere. I know... I know... a thimble... whatever... I typically try to caution people about sewing. You can do a good bit of damage to material by sticking a needle in it over and over. With cloth, you can stick holes in it all you want and the material is not damaged at all. The needle goes between the fibers. With leather, vinyl, neoprene, drytop material, ect... every time you punch it with a needle, there is a hole there forever. Those of you who remember old vinyl car seats may remember that they often failed on the dotted line, where the stitching is. It's like a the perforated holes in the old cracker boxes that allow you to grab one bit of cardboard, and pull it to open the box. Some people think they need to remove, then resew these gaskets in place. Done correctly, it can be just fine and stronger than the original, but there is a downside. I pretty much try to avoid it.

My little rant about "if it ain't broke, it can't be fixed" is from my older brother kicking my ass for disassembling most everything I've ever owned. Taking stuff apart is much more fun than putting it back together. I've gotten better... but... I'm probably going to completely disassemble my new/used Mamba soon and correct a few problems. Half of this disassembly will be for fun, just to get a good, thorough look at the "creek outfitting" this boat came with, though I'll tell myself that I'm doing it to look for potential problems. If my brother were here, he'd smack me on the back of my head.

It appears that cone shaped gaskets are cheap and readily available, while flat gaskets are a bit harder to come by and pricey. The gaskets WaldensRidge sells are cone shaped and out of stock. I ordered a couple gaskets from http://www.shop.gummifabrikken.com/main.sc as well as a 3/4 oz tube of AquaSeal for a grand total of $50.60 shipped. Are they flat or cone shaped? WTH knows. I'm going to install one of them on my drytop anyway. The picture looks like a flat gasket, but so did the WaldenRidge picture. Go figure.

Would somebody care to give me a tutorial on inserting hyper links?
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  Quote Monk Replybullet Posted: 21 Sep 2011 at 12:05pm
Also, if you use contact cement, avoid the newer low VOC stuff. I just replaced a gasket with that, and it never dried. Pulled the whole thing apart, used the older style daps weld wood or whatever it is called and it set right up.
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  Quote Wiggins Replybullet Posted: 21 Sep 2011 at 12:21pm
Monk,

For those of us who don't have the can right in front of us, do you mean buy the old stuff in the red can and avoid the new stuff in the green can? I have heard from friends that were outfitting canoes that the green can stuff sucks, but never looked into why.

Both times I have had to replace gaskets on this suit I had to go to the hardware store to find something to make a form and usually had to modify what I bought pretty heavily to make it work. Palm made the neck hole on this thing a weird size and nothing seems to fit right. I even went to a few stores with the suit to try and find a pot that would fit! I would not want to bet on finding a form in the field with what is available in the raft.

The foam plug is a great idea for a form to use at home, but a little bulky for stowing in a repair kit.

Kyle
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  Quote fiddleyak Replybullet Posted: 21 Sep 2011 at 12:53pm
I've always replaced gaskets the same way:

1. Find a suitable mold that the old gasket can wrap tightly around.
2. Place new gasket around mold such that it overlaps old gaskets
3. Flip up new gasket, place aquaseal on old gasket, flip new gasket back over.

Advice
-Don't try to use an aquaseal replacement. Every time I have, my gasket has torn off and wasted way more time that I saved in money.
-I used to hunt all over the house to find the perfect mold. Now I just find something a bit smaller, and duct tape on strips of cardboard until it is the perfect size. Toilet paper rolls modified this way work well for feet/wrists.
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