Professor Paddle: I need help please!!!

Josho: You would be surprised. I am not going to say that all cops call other cops on their BS, but lot of what happens during any investigation happens away from the public eye. With people as lawsuit happy as they are today cops don’t back each other up like they used to. I am not the only one in my department by a long shot that feels this way. The bottom line is that most cops like owning a house, having a bank account, having a good job, and owning a car. If someone else in the department feels the need to put all that at risk over their ego they don’t get a lot of support internally.

I have stated my position on attitude tickets here before. I don’t agree with them, and I do not write them.

Larry: There are three reasons to stop cars. 1) Take enforcement action, 2) driver education, and 3) improve traffic safety. Only 1 out of three requires me to write a ticket. As far as traffic tickets go I have complete discretion when it comes to who I write a ticket to and who I do not. I do not write other cops tickets, but I also don’t write teachers, doctors, firemen, soldiers, and a whole slough of other people. Other cops similarly don’t write tickets to a wide variety of people. On average I write about 1 ticket for every 10 or 15 stops. Anyone I usually don’t write tickets to can get a ticket if they do something stupid enough (again offense related, not attitude); cops included. I have been given warnings before, and I have been ticketed. I don’t benefit from not issuing a ticket I am not required to write, and I guarantee you that if you take away my discretion to not ticket someone more citizens are going to pay than cops. Police corruption is a serious issue, and this is not police corruption by any stretch of the imagination. Besides, you can pull anything you want to get out of a ticket, same goes for me. I get a ticket I pay it, just like everyone else.

Kiwi: Questionable taste is not a crime. I have no idea.

Water wacko: Short answer is yes, long answer is yes but…

If James had a camera he could have whipped it out and started filming. The officers are in a public place so they are subject to being filmed like everyone else. The problem is that if the filming of the incident started to interfere with the investigation it could be interpreted as obstruction. Furthermore anything in the hands can be used as a weapon, and this

Tickets for everyone at the Sky today. Rick got a parking ticket and got pulled over. This thread takes on new meaning for me. $150+ in tickets for the trip.

Wiggins, I'm going to have to call BS on a couple of your statements.

I have never been asked what I do for a living when pulled over, or been given a break caus' I drive for a living. If they are just assuming this because of the vehicle I drive then that is most certainly descrimination, In fact what you describe is total descrimination, which doesn't make me any less pissed off. I am fine with using descretion in writing a ticket, But using what they do for a living or how much money they make. I haven't seen any evidence of that but if it is true then now I am really pissed off. Now, I have ridden with cops who simply showed thier ID as a cop, and suddenly going double the speed limit was no big deal.

The state patrol issues a ticket in 67% of stops, up from 49% just two years ago. In local jurasdiclions that number is a bit higher. This is because the state patrol only sees 5% of the revenue from the tickets they issue while local jurasdiclion receives 50-60%. I cannot beleive that you would still have a job if your average was under 10%.

Corruption is a very serious issue, and until there is acountability (from outside the police department) then it will continue.

On a seperate note. I have relatives who are police officers, many "friends" (I can no longer call them friends) who are police officers, and had enough run ins (not all bad), And have yet to meet the "exception". So I am sorry Wiggins for being so cynicle.

PS, if you could tell me some of the things I could "pull" I woul apreciate it, caus' I obviously haven't figured it out yet. (not even being innocent has worked yet)

Larry,

There are a lot of ways I can figure out what you do for a living. A lot of places (military especially) require parking permits that are displayed in the vehicle. A lot of people keep work ID's on their keychains or in their wallets. Sometimes I see prior contacts from work in the computer when I check names. A lot of the time people will tell me what they do, and some peole I simply recognize from prior contacts.

There are a lot of reasons I don't write citations, relatively few of them are related to what someone does for a living. I have posted on this before and am not going to waste time writing it out again. Basically anyone can talk their way out of a ticket with me, but you aren't going to talk yourself into one.

I make more stops on average than anyone in my squad. I know where your info on WSP stats comes from, but where do you get your info on locals? In my county (which I am told is pretty much right in line with other counties in the state as far as stat per capita go) has never come anywhere near WSP's numbers for stops, tickets, or tickets versus stops ratios. There is a very simple reason for this. WSP are all traffic cops. It is what they do, and why they exist. Locals are not nearly as specialized, save for a few officers here and there who are assigned to traffic units. Patrol does not equal traffic. I spend very little time working traffic.

WSP was featured in the news special on King5 because their policy change was a dramatic departure from what they did in the past and what other departments currently do.

Furthermore I have never once been pushed to go out and write tickets. We get almost none of the revenue generated from tickets. They go back to the county government and into the county coffers. My department's budget stays the same no matter how many tickets I write.

What can you do to not get a ticket if you are stopped? Just a guess, but I suggest curbing the attitude. As it stands I probably wouldn't write you because I don't ticket kayakers.

If this pisses you off I really don't care.

Kyle

First of all, anyone who knows me (we have only met once breifly so I couldn't expect you to) would know that I have never given a cop attitude (aside from court, which didn't hurt my case caus' I had already lost). But that has never helped me.

Second, I don't care how you "find out what I do". Just the fact that you may use that to determine wether or not you write me a ticket is descrimination.

As far as statistics, the 50-60% going to local jurasdictions was in the same report. That doesn' neccessarily mean it goes to the police department. But I have to beleive some incentive is still there. Certainly every city is different, but I certainly know it's there in my city.

Lastly, I certaily don't expect you to care. If you did you wouldn't be a cop, now would you.

I know the 50% figure came from that same report. I was refering to the statement you made that the local jurisdictions write more tickets than WSP.

A buddy of mine who just retired from KCSO avoided going to court his last few years on the job by not writing tickets on stops. His average number of tickets per month was in the single digits and he worked traffic.

As I said before your job is far from the only reason I don't give tickets. Give me a reasonable excuse, make me laugh, or admit what happened are all examples of things that anyone can do that makes it unlikely I am going to give out a ticket. It is not an exclusive club; anyone can get in. It is not discrimination, it is discretion.

As far as cops not caring, I'll have to remember that next time I choose to stay late for overtime I know I won't get approved for a worthy cause. That only happens about two or three times a week...

Kyle

Dave, is PowWrangler pronounced (po) like po-po? hmm?

James,

On the no insurance portion of the ticket in the statute colum it should read RCW 46.30.020. RCW 46.30 references the chapter and section of the RCW (Revised Code of Washington), but not the actual offense. If J Eshom wrote RCW 46.30 on the ticket, but left out 020 (the specific offense) it could be a technicality that you could use to get that part of the citation dropped. Similarly The other infraction should say RCW followed by a series of at least seven numbers in the following format: XX.XX.XXX.

Kyle

Sorry Wiggins, I knew that last statement could be taken several ways, but the way it was meant was, Cops cannot care about what others think of them or they could not be cops. Not that you don't care.

As far as the rest, No one is going to change my opinion any mor then they will change yours, they are just too deep seeded.

James, Good Luck. It sounds like you have a case and I hope you fight it as far as you can. I will help in any way I can. (even if that means staying out of it competely)

Now, someone up there said "isn't this a boating forum?" and I hear the rain falling.

A flow study was done recently by a large, diverified group, of many of the rivers in this state (and others), and the results were extremely conclusive. ALL rivers are more fun to paddle when there is WATER in them.

I think more research is needed. See ya!

Next time you want to be a good sameritan, just call a towtruck and wait for it to come then pay the $100 fee to have the vehicle pulled out of the ditch. It's alot cheaper than paying the ticket and dealing with the Romans or Nazis or whatever you want to call our government.

You the man Kyle! I appreciate your active participation when we have problems with the po-lice, meth heads, etc.

In my previous post, I'm not bashing the police, I'm bashing our lawmakers. They seem to find a way to pass all kinds of crazy laws, but find no time or way to protect someone trying to help another. Isn't that what our founding fathers had in mind when they created this country? What happened? Total power has totaly corrupted and infected our society.

James,

crazy stuff- $550 for no insurance- wowsers?! 30 seconds or u lose; that's not funny.

Don't forget about the good times at the pass that day, and the dandy ol hike with captain blackstrap.

No your right ... I had a great day with D1 and I would do it all again.

Wiggins like always you rock... Even when you know there are going to be a bunch of monkeys in here that want blood you still post up with help and advice. Thanks man.

All cops are not bad, but I honestly feel that we are getting closer and closer to a point where the majority of the police force is becoming unaccountable to the citizens. As long as this continues officers that do care and are out to serve like wiggy will be scrutinized and judged wrongly by the general public who only sees the actions and responses of the majority.

Well now James Amandus JR. I was unaware that consumption of the devils swill (aka: blackstrap) was involved! This throws a different light on things.....

I don't touch the stuff!

I will never ignore people in need. Help other's if you can, when you can. When is that time ? When you choose too !! Everyone can be a cop, a fireman, an e.m.t . Of course training can make a huge difference but the will to do the right thing is within everyone. That's if the right thing in your mind is the right thing !! Everyone has different view's that's why I don't trust or rely on anyone. You have your own conscious to live with help or don't help. The downfall to our society is just that. People usually don't want to help for one " it's someone else's job !" Two they're simply selfish 3 they are to ignorant to do anything. It comes down to education, compassion and then taking action. Which is somtimes the hardest thing to do because most Americant's are too lazy. I'm trying to make this post not about cops cause even though I disagree with our society and how it is run, It's how you handle yourself that will or will not get you in trouble or save you from it. How ever you look at everyone want's to blame someone else for your own distress. There are few that take responsability. I hate the scapegoat attitude but that's American't's for ya. If somthing dosn't go your way point the finger at someone or something and if that dosn't work you alway's have God and the Devil to blame for your problems as well. So the next accident you might feel like helping out with you hopefully will help out and not be swayed by what may happen if you do because of what -eva. nuff said bout dis topic yo. May I recomend a great movie on health insurance in the world "Sicko " by Michale Moore. Very very good, Off topic but still everyone should watch it ! Oh and paddling the other day was wicked sick too. A foot or more of snow everywhere on the sky. Steven's should open thurs. Yee haa !!

Edited by Chuck e fresh - 04 Dec 2007 at 9:54am

In keeping up with the continuity of this thread, I went to court today, James, not to contest a ticket but to explain my circumstances. I did, technically, do the deed (traffic) and I wanted to expand for the judge so he/she could understand my position, and reasoning. Well, long story short, the judge was a total B-I-T-C-H! She didn't reduce the fine one penny ($216). I don't deserve it, I tell you! uh. I don't believe that all government workers are bad, then i would have to say that all people are bad. Only some are bad. I just wanted to share my pain. Ecuador sounds nice.

This thread has taken a much needed turn towards positive.

Just like kayakers, there are cops who are dicks, and cops who are nice. All the Po I've dealt with in WA have been pretty nice, and have been helping me (2), or have excused my transgressions with just a warning (2). I do feel bad, not just for Wiggins (who I like alot and have respect for) and cops when people steriotypically rag on a whole group of whoever; it isn't good to do that.

As for James: That sucks bro, you were doing the right thing helping out; I plan to pour some drink out for you next beer. Good luck vindicating yourself and with that shoulder.

What were all the tickets at the Sky about last weekend (Weide, Brett, others)?

You should have started singing "lets get physical" to that punk cop. Sue his ass!

Edited by erikSANDSTROM - 04 Dec 2007 at 3:48pm

Erik is right here. A few really nasty things have been said on this thread, and while I certainly agree that there are valid points, remember that there are other police officers out there like Wiggins that deserve our admiration, respect, and assistance to improve both our communities and the police force itself.

And James, if you need any character witnesses, give me a call...

My turn... As Eric says, cops come from the same group as all of us; people. Some are good, some are bad and most are a combination of both, just like you and just like me. The difference is that a cop can have a direct impact on your day/life when you are dealing with him/her. This makes us take them a little more seriously, as it should.

Larry, you think all cops are jerks? Say that when your mother is being assaulted by some meth head and a cop risks life and limb to come to her aid. Don't think that doesn't happen. I spent 4 years running a crazy Pioneer Square nightclub in the '80's and I had more than a few cops help me out with some really scary people. I also witnessed some being bullies too. Again, there are all kinds of people.

Two things to know about cops:

One: They are expected to (and will) risk their life to protect the rest of us.

Two: When you live in a state of constantly being disliked for your job, not your persona, it can't help but be trying at times.

Which brings us to appropriate behavior when being pulled over or talked to by a cop. No matter what you've done, and it's likely you've done something, however minor, the first rule of engagement is don't be a smart ass. You always say something along the lines of "My apologies, it won't happen again.". And, if you really want to pursue it, "May I explain what I was doing?"

Which is why I couldn't help notice that James admits to pointing out to the cop that he (the cop) was the one blocking traffic while he was talking to James. Now, I understand that James may have been a bit miffed as he was being a good samaritan and the cop was obviously having a bad day and shouldn't have been hassling James at all. But why would you antagonize a cop that was obviously in a bad mood? In their line of work jokes and/or sarcasm are not appreciated at all.

Now I agree that what happened next was way overboard as far as the cops reaction. The ticket was patently unfair and the treatment James was subjected to was inexcusable. I think James should both fight the ticket(s) and file a complaint. I hope he beats the ticket and I hope the cop(s) are reprimanded accordingly.

Admittedly, I'm not sure I could have shut up either, but I have to think that this whole thing would never have developed into this mess if James had simply held his tongue.

For the record, I do hate the fact that our municipalites use tickets as a revenue source. That's always been a sore point. Although I agree that we need some kind of enforcement to make sure everyone drives/behaves in a safe manner, the punishment shouldn't be looked at as a source of revenue.

James, good luck with your case. I hope you win.

Edited by Kyle K - 04 Dec 2007 at 8:01pm

Kyle K.. I in no way support the abuse of power administered by police officers, however. I have a rule, when pulled over, or confronted by a law enforcement official, my responce is "Yes Sir" "No sir"

I, in my heart of hearts believe that James was wronged by our boys in blue, it is unfortunate that I have acknowledged the assualt on my civil liberties to the point that I inherintly respond in an acceptable fashion! I roll over and say what I think they wanna hear.

The question that keeps rising in my mind everyday is: If you smash you self in the head with a brick.. Will it hurt? Yes! So dont do it. Thats how I feel about little old me trying to change anything. It wil cost more in effort and money than I could ever achieve?

I know this is the lamb mentality to justice, but I dont feel that if I make my life more difficult to prove a point, the point will be proven?

In the end I stand up for James, I believe in what he is trying to do, I just dont care enough anymore to fight the fight!

Good Luck James, Go get them Tiger!

Edited by newtobin - 04 Dec 2007 at 10:37pm

Dam guys! It took me over half an hour to read that!

A couple of things:

James, after you get over being pissed off, re-read the stuff Wiggins posted about how to help your case and what it will take to push it higher up the food chain. This is going to require that you are level-headed and smart. I have faith that you can do it; just know what you are getting into and what you can realistically expect to happen.

I've had my fair share of run-ins with cops that pissed on my parade; but looking back on it, there's a lot I could have done to side-step the whole issue. Kyle's got a point which I think the cop bashers missed completely.

Wiggins, I admire your thick skin my brother.

Dan

Edited by SupaSta - 04 Dec 2007 at 11:11pm