big 'ol crack in my all star
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Category: General
Forum Name: Whitewater Forum
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URL: http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8068
Printed Date: 04 Jul 2025 at 11:41am
Topic: big 'ol crack in my all star
Posted By: matta
Subject: big 'ol crack in my all star
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2009 at 10:15pm
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Just found a "L" shaped crack in my jackson all star. I'll see if Jackson will warranty it, but it was a demo, so I doubt it. I hear the cross link plastic they use doesn't weld. Has anybody had any luck repairing their jackson kayaks? I can try it my self or pay you - I've got enough home projects percolating without needing to learn a new skill . . .
matt
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Replies:
Posted By: SupaSta
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2009 at 10:27pm
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Post this on BoaterTalk. They're always going on-and-on about welding kayaks. That sucks man; good luck. Dan ------------- Life is short, paddle hard! |
Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2009 at 10:31pm
| doesnt weld? if the plastic melts, i would think it would weld just fine. |
Posted By: Jed Hawkes
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2009 at 10:40pm
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I always hear that the plastic burns and doesn't melt. Might try contacting Jackson and asking them if they have any input on what the best plan would be.
I've heard of people using silicone on cracks. Score the area around and in the crack and do what works. But this is all second hand information. good luck. |
Posted By: dragorossinw
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2009 at 11:46pm
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I have welded a many of a boat in my paddling career, but have never welded a Jackson. I have welded X-Link plastic, but unkinown their composition, its always worth a shot. Oh yah, heres a handy tool I have been playing with on some old hulls, refining my skills -
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96464 - http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96464
Note: Try welding on an old plastic garbage can lid or similar to learn a bit of technique before your beloved watercraft. Use thin 1/8 x 1/8 inch strips of plastic from the same item you are welding, if this is a boat, the combing is a good palce to pirate the needed product. Weld both the outside and inside of the hull.
One last tip, when welding is all said and done, let it cure for a couple hours, then hit the weld with a heat gun just until it gets a sheen. Then swipe it with a peice of wax paper (wax side against boat) and it will blend it like it was never there. But you can forego this step if you do not care about making it look pretty. ------------- Tony Z dragorossinorthwest@yahoo.com www.nookiekayaking.us www.dragorossi.com www.donkeyfIip.com |
Posted By: dragorossinw
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2009 at 11:57pm
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Originally posted by Ellingferd
doesnt weld? if the plastic melts, i would think it would weld just fine. All plastics have different properties. the best to weld are those the 'sit' when applied to heat. While others tend to tighten or pull in rapidly. Linier sits because it is made up of strands overlapping one another, so I am told. while X Link will want to go to its original form and fold into itself. I think that is the best way to put it. I used to pay more attention to this crap before I was changing diapers (and no, not my own).
While still, others will expand when applied to heat, its all pretty fastinating in a dorky kind of way. ------------- Tony Z dragorossinorthwest@yahoo.com www.nookiekayaking.us www.dragorossi.com www.donkeyfIip.com |
Posted By: dblanchard
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 3:33am
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Your best bet, as you know, is to get it warranteed. I don't think they'll hesitate, but if they do, use this article as a reference point in your favor (unless you have a 2008 boat).
http://www.jacksonkayak.com/articles/article.cfm?directory=articles07&article=200712031 - http://www.jacksonkayak.com/articles/article.cfm?directory=articles07&article=200712031 For general plastic welding search these fora for "Playing with your crack" and scroll down to the repost of the video. Some helpful tips follow that post. For crosslinked polyethylene (PEX), start with this article from BYU to understand what you're dealing with (if you have a newer Jackson that is indeed crosslinked plastic). The first two paragraphs don't pertain, so much, but the rest is good. Go Cougs! http://www.jacksonkayak.com/jknews05/crosslinkedplastic.pdf - http://www.jacksonkayak.com/jknews05/crosslinkedplastic.pdf From that, my best guess on effect repairs would be to get some PEX powder (maybe from Jackson) and create new crosslinking yourself, making sure to heat from both inside the boat and outside.This article indicates that welding is only effective on linear PE, which can then be crosslinked following the welding process. http://www.pexassociation.net/uploads/files/What%20is%20crosslinked%20polyethylene.pdf - http://www.pexassociation.net/uploads/files/What%20is%20crosslinked%20polyethylene.pdf Here is a patent on butt-welding PE-X that lists times and temperatures in case you buy the tool recommended indragorossinw's post above. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6524425.html - http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6524425.html Whether you get the tool or not, I'd find out from Jackson how long to heat the plastic/powder for the best curing. Whenever working with hot plastic, work in a very well ventilated area and I recommend a respirator or something similar over your mouth and nose. The wet bandana isn't going to cut it.Let us know what your outcome is. D |
Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 6:35am
| i just welded a crack in my jefe and it was super easy. knowing cross link isnt very weldable (sp?) i doubt i would be interested in buying a jackson. |
Posted By: Jimmy
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 7:24am
| I've heard of people drilling the crack on both ends and then putting vynal mastic tape on the inside and the outside of the boat at the crack and having it last a long time. I have only read about it though, I don't know anyone that has personally done this, but that kind of tape is very tough and very sticky. |
Posted By: Ellingferd
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 8:44am
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drill both ends of the crack. get some vinyl mastic tape and silicone. put silicone on the vinyl mastic in a straight bead. slightly heat the silicone with your heat gun and put this on the inside of the boat with the bead of silicone lining up on the crack. press the silicone into the crack. wipe away excess, then fill the crack on the outside with plastic cut from the cockpit rim. sand when cooled. should work great.
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Posted By: Kiwi
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 8:50am
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Originally posted by Ellingferd i just welded a crack in my jefe and it was super easy. knowing cross link isnt very weldable (sp?) i doubt i would be interested in buying a jackson. crosslinked is great because you can repair oilcanning and other dents with a hairdryer. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 10:09am
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One way to go is the duct tape patch. It sounds sketchy but it holds up alright for a while. I guess the other kind of tape would work the same way?
First, drill both ends of the crack. After you do this, apply a strip of duct tape. Smooth your tape with a spoon or something else smooth. Heat with a hair dryer, smooth again. Repeat this with a whole lot of duct tape, making sure that the edges of each piece overlap, giving you a watertight patch. Do this both on the inside of the boat, outside as well if you want to. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 10:11am
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Oh, I forgot, before you put the tape on, sand the area around the crack and clean it with rubbing alcohol so that your tape sticks on well. ------------- |
Posted By: explwhore
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 10:31am
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I have heard from Chan the old owner of wave sport that you should not weld Cross Link plastic because it causes cancer. But I still have seen some welds on an old Y boat hold pretty well. |
Posted By: oukr9965
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 12:50pm
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Jackson is pretty solid with their warranties. If it's a demo you never really know what will happen but maybe they'll work out a price for you with a new hull. Never hurts to ask for a warranty and never hurts to ask for a fair price on a new hull if it's not warrantied. All they can say is no. Otherwise, drilling the ends of the crack and then the duct tape weld worked great for me on my old pyranha. Still holding, although I'm not paddling it anymore.
I've heard great things about the mastic tape.
Good luck either way!
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Posted By: oukr9965
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 12:51pm
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Forgot to mention....going to be welding my SuperStar that I cracked in January pretty soon as I don't think Jackson is going to ask for it back. I'll let you know how it goes. Still looking for extra outfitting for a SuperStar if anyone has some laying around. Thanks,
Lanson
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Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 2:08pm
I know a few boaters with "big 'ol cracks", and not all of of them are on their boats 
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Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 2:39pm
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I guess I'm amazed at how often I see people repair only the outside of the boat. If I were to only repair one side, it would be the inside.
Drilling the ends of the crack keep the crack from growing. It only needs to be a small hole.
The outside repair should be intended as a wear patch, and an initial defense against leaks. Inside the haul is where you want to focus on a watertight repair.
But really, you should just get an Eskimo or a Prijon. ------------- 🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋🐋 |
Posted By: rshingle
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 2:54pm
| Last Summer I cracked a Jackson demo I bought and although Jackson wouldn't replace it for free, they sold me a new hull for $200 and shipped it to WA from TN for $60. |
Posted By: RemAcct2
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 3:02pm
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JP is right. Look at these folks paddling 10 year old boats. You can tell they are heavily worn, but they haven't broken. Seriously, how many old Prijons and Eskimos have you seen. Now, how many really old Liquid Logics or Wavesports do you see. Construction makes a big difference. If I fit comfortably in them, I'd by an Eskimo.
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Posted By: James
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 3:36pm
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Leif - You could buy a TopoDuo and then just put one of those hatch skirt/covers on the front... Then when you were out on a multiday you would have ample room for the snack pack, and on that elusive class II you could pop your hoofs out the front for a little sun n' fresh air.  |
Posted By: Texas Dave
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 5:17pm
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I wasn't able to weld my jackson punk rocker. The plastic just burned. So I've been paddling mine with a duct tape patcth. ------------- Dave |
Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 8:10pm
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Cross Linked plastis does NOT weld.
If you heat it to it;s molding point it catches on fire and contaminates the area with carbon and other chemicals.
The best bet in fixing, not welding a cross linked kayak is mesh and epoxy.
DO NOT attempt to meld a plastic with cross linked plastic. It will seperate.
The best solution is to use a flexible mesh overlayed with semi flecib epoxy / fiberglassing resin.
Drill the holes at the terminus of the cracks, and if necessary inject the resin into the crack with a large bore needle.
The trick is to lay the mesh on the inside and the outside of the hull.
the inside patch is far more important.
Spread the resin thin, if necessary, apply a secondary coat over the top.
Make sure it is flexible epoxy!
------------- Sure? |
Posted By: matta
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2009 at 9:18pm
| Thanks everybody for the reply - aquasports was closed today, so I'll call them tomorrow. hopefully, Jackson will warranty it or let me replace it for not to much $. Otherwise I'll probably be checking in for advice soon. . . . |
Posted By: 14kayaking2
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2009 at 7:13pm
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the ANSWER!!! DUCT tape..... if you can't duck it, $%ck it! ------------- "We are only boaters between swims" Matty |
Posted By: water wacko
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2009 at 8:51am
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One other thing no has has mentioned is that super linear plastic is not as strong as x-link plastic. I understand up to 6 times stronger. Newer boats use less plastic, lightening the weight, and reducing the overall strength. That's why you see 30 yo RPM's still floating. And everyone used to use x-link. Now I think Jackson is the only one. Although, the 'classic' Jackson's use super linear. ------------- "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman |
Posted By: Travisimo
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 12:26pm
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Okay, I've asked plenty of people what "crosslink" really means. ALL boats are crosslinked or they would fall apart, the very definition of plastic is being crosslinked. When polymer chains are linked together by crosslinks, they lose some of their ability to move as individual polymer chains. For example, a liquid polymer (where the chains are freely flowing) can be turned into a "solid" or "gel" by crosslinking the chains together. (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_link) What is the actual difference between the "old" and "new" plastics? I've never been able to find anything online... Should also mention I would really like to know the actual blend because it would help me weld them better... Is it proprietary and no boat manufacturer wants to give away the blend? ------------- H2O please |
Posted By: kurle
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 12:42pm
| my buddy has a jackson super fun with a big ol crack in the bottom. we now call his boat a soft shell kayak because of how weak the plastic is. he uses gorilla tape and a hair dryer. its been holding on the wenatchee, but i dunno about runs with lots of rocks. |
Posted By: jP
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 3:32pm
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Originally posted by water wacko
Newer boats use less plastic, lightening the weight, and reducing the overall strength. That's why you see 30 yo RPM's still floating. And everyone used to use x-link. -just to clarify the figurative nature of Bret's post ( he didn't literally mean that the RPM is a 30 yr old design, it's not.) The RPM was introduced in the mid-late 90's. Someone else around here, Maybe Bill Petty, could confirm the actual year it hit the market.
Staying on topic, it would be nice if a kayak manufacturer could make a repairable plastic. Such a repairable boat with a kit and instructions on how to really make solid, lasting, watertight repairs (Fiberglass/Kevlar/S-Glass, ect. may be more prone to breaking, but they are infinitely repairable in a seamless, homogenous way) would be worth $2,000 IMO.
Thourough cleaning before any repair job will always be critical to its sucess.
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Posted By: Tobin
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 4:19pm
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Kayak makers keep their plastic compound under lock and key, not that a chemist couldn't figure it out, mostly to escape scrutiny.
Kayakers will research the different types and bitch that a maker doesn't use one type over another, also if they change suppliers they don't have to deal with the testing process and blame if warranties come up. It is not cross linked that makes Jackson's 'unweldable' it the nature of the polymer they use that it is essentially tempered in the molding process. By welding it you de temper the plastic and even if you are using the same type of plastic it will not bond. Wow, I just bored myself! ------------- Sure? |
Posted By: RPMMAX
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2009 at 6:13pm
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After I read some of the comments I looked in my records, and in 1995 and 1996 I purchased two boats.
At that time we were giver a choice of linnear or crossed linked for each of the boats. The suppliers always maintained that the crosslinked was stronger but harder to weld. I ordered both of those boats in linear because I had intended to do self support trips and may be able to weld them by inserting them to a fire. I still have these boats. Neither are cracked. Bill Petty ------------- RPMMAX |
Posted By: dblanchard
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2009 at 1:14pm
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How many of you read the Wikipedia page without adding kayaks to the "Uses" section?
Seriously, I'm glad we get all your energies here on PP instead. @etive: The best explanation I've found was in the PDf on the previous page: http://www.pexassociation.net/uploads/files/What%20is%20crosslinked%20polyethylene.pdf - http://www.pexassociation.net/uploads/files/What%20is%20crosslinked%20polyethylene.pdf |
Posted By: dblanchard
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2009 at 1:22pm
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I think this is the article I was looking for:
http://www.jacksonkayak.com/jknews05/crosslinkedplastic.pdf - http://www.jacksonkayak.com/jknews05/crosslinkedplastic.pdf D |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2009 at 8:18am
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RPM's hit the market around 97' I think. ------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |
Posted By: tiziak
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2009 at 8:27am
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EddyFlower says 1996. I just remember having one before I was in highschool... ------------- If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there. Daniel Patrinellis 360.434.4616 |