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PaulGamache
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   Topic: PPBall - No Short Boat Class!?!?
Posted: 09 May 2008 at 5:22pm |
Word on the street is that there's no short boat class to this year's PP Ball downriver race. How in the hell is anyone supposed to beat a long boat if all they have is a creeker?
My vote is for a short boat class set at 9' and less, it takes almost no additional work to organize and makes for a more legit comp. If prizes etc are an issue for creating an additional class, personally I would be stoked standing a chance to place, rather than getting some swag.
It's like coming to a sword fight and some dude bringing an uzi. There's no chance in hell aladdin is going to beat the terminator...well maybe but that's for a different thread.
Thanks for hearing this one out, either way I'll race but it would be cool to stand a chance to place.
SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS! SHORT BOAT CLASS!
Paul
Edited by PaulGamache - 09 May 2008 at 5:25pm
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RemAcct2
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Posted: 09 May 2008 at 6:08pm |
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I am sure if you ask nicely, James will hand off organizational responsibility for the race to you. One of the reasons there was only going to be one class is that we were trying to keep things simple given the large numbers of things that need to get coordinated. The only aspect that would need to get coordinated is prizes would work if there is more than one class.
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Posted: 09 May 2008 at 6:50pm |
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Yeah....having only one class also ensures a lack of competition because, as Paul said, no one can beat a long boat in a short boat. I feel like for any serious race, a short boat and long boat class should be a given.
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PaulGamache
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Posted: 09 May 2008 at 7:18pm |
Just want to say now before someone gets upset, what I was saying was totally a joke...but it would be cool if there was a short boat class.
I'm down to help out w/ the race, it's pretty easy to make the two classes if help is needed for this to happen sign me up.
See you there, James + Co sounds like you're doing an awesome job on this one.
Don't get my comments wrong more of constructive critisism then anything...that and I wanted to see if someone would argue Aladdin could destroy the terminator. Personally I think if Aladdin was able to use the magic carpet and had the genie help out a bit he might be able to jump on the terminator's head and beat him that way. However the weapons the terminator has are WAY better then anything Aladdin's got, well maybe the monkey...the monkey could cause some havoc on this whole thing. Maybe Aladdin could swoop in with the magic carpet throw the monkey, who would be stretched out for maximum effect and grapple the T-1000 in the face. Once distracted Aladdin could then come in hot with the carpet and push the terminator into some sort of nearby machinery which of course has melting molten lava around.
It would be tough but it could happen...
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fiddleyak
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Posted: 09 May 2008 at 8:12pm |
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"Lack of competition"? Paddling a long boat is WAY more difficult, in a continuous stretch of whitewater with little flatwater it can slow you down as much as help you (I can't comment on lower icicle since I haven't done it yet).
I like open class, 2 different classes means that you have two races that are overall less competitive.
I looked on CL for 2 days and found a longboat for less than $200, you can too.
Paul, you need to stop whining (not to mention smoking crack) and play by the rules!
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Posted: 09 May 2008 at 8:51pm |
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Yo, I'm not saying that long boats aren't tough or fun, I think they are. Just that not everyone just has a long boat lying around....or $200.
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PaulGamache
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Posted: 09 May 2008 at 11:12pm |
Uh...not really whinning there Ben just trying to make a more round competition. I'm all about ridiculous rules, mayhem, chaos, etc but as long as everyone for the most part has the same throw at winning. By having an "open" class as you've put it you've taken the randomness out of "the rules" and now it comes down to who can find/afford the fastest boat. Stoked you found a longboat on Craigslist for $200, good for you. Some of us can't really afford to drop that kind of money for a race.
If you were a "real man" as you seem to be calling everyone else out nowadays for not being, you wouldn't have to pay 200 bucks for a long boat. Race your shortboat Ben, let's see who takes it.
Anyone who cares, practice laps are going down Sunday around noon.
I'll buy a rack of beer for the fastest time that beats Hawthorne in their shortboat.
All in good fun. See you Sunday.
Edited by PaulGamache - 09 May 2008 at 11:26pm
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James
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Posted: 10 May 2008 at 12:49am |
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This is the rad I am already having fun reading the prebanter lol....
Just FYI , I am chatting with Fish on the side about this Paul, and a few others helping with the events. I will have an answer soon on the classes and downriver race updates.
Gotta make it short cause Brad just owned me at the beverage place pub, Josh FEDORA stood us up and I feel like I am going to pass out.
J
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Weide
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Posted: 10 May 2008 at 3:57am |
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Bottoms up!
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fiddleyak
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Posted: 10 May 2008 at 5:53pm |
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Honestly, I don't really care, I'd be happy to paddle my creekboat. Of course a 12 foot boat will give you an unfair advantage.
It really is fun to paddle a long boat in a race though, so I'm hoping 4+ people will bring one out.
Ben
PS: Rob, Brad, and I made it down Ernie's today, wow! After living here almost half a year it still blows my mind that we have such high quality runs within an hour of town.
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dave
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Posted: 10 May 2008 at 7:50pm |
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Remember James, the story about DAVID and goliath.
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Nomad
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jP
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Posted: 11 May 2008 at 4:48pm |
Ok time for me to weigh in on this Boat length issue. Get ready, but, you SHOULD have known it was coming, so here goes:
boat length is not the sole determining factor of how competitive a racer is. It's not the size of the wand, it's the magic in it. Yeah, any boat over 12' would start to get an unfair advantage in the hands of a qualified paddler. But the other factors that are crucial ti win include physical conditioning, skill level, knowledge of the run, and knowing how to find the fastest currents in the river. Just that last variable (knowing where the fast water is) will curb the competitive edge of most participants.
So lets take these other variables out for a moment and play with their implications, shall we?
1) Boat length: Ben is right that a long boat can hinder as much as it helps in big, pushy whitewater. The boat's design is also a factor, i.e., low volume edgy boats will
somewhat succumb to turbulent reactionarys and bury into the subsurface. A boat that rides high (such as a creeker) will be able to stay on top and be less influnced by cross currents. Also, if you get a long boat but don't spend time in it, my guess is that it may be more of a setback due to unfamiliarity.
I can't afford to go get a SHORTER boat. so what do I do? Not race? I say let everyone participate in one class and see how everything shakes out. And if you're that concerned, get a faster boat. It's bad logic to think that in a DOWNRIVER RACE, you should have to paddle a SLOW boat (creeker).
What's next? Oh. now this boat has too little rocker. Disqualify it. That boat is too skinny. Disqualify it too.
2) Let's consider physical conditioning. Or even, natural BUILD. I'm a scrawny f**king runt, for example. So as soon as you start talking about how this or that is unfair, well, Maybe we shouldn't let The most ripped paddlers participate because they... You see where this bullshit is going? I'd argue that my 9' boat should be allowed to race because I'm a runt, but the bottom line is, even with the Diablo, I don't expect to win just because it's 9'. There's simply a lot of talented, strong paddlers who will probably blow my doors off despite the fact that my boat has an extra foot. So what.
3)Skill level: If you want to break it into classes, it should be based on SKILL LEVEL.
More advanced paddlers are more serious competitiors, generally. Skill is as big of a determining factor as any other. No offense, but most of you here in the west don't know much about down river racing. Back east, where the tradition runs deep, you don't hear these debates. In fact, all the serious competitors at the Upper Yough race, and the Gualley Race, all show up in WILDWATER BOATS. Now THAT is a truly unfair advantage, not and extra foot or two. But they are all more advanced anyway, so I think Skill level is a better way to class.
4)knowledge of the run. A racer who studies the run, and has an experienced eye for where the fast currents are, is really going to gain an edge. That is a HUGE part of downriver racing. I get the impression, that, these days with "Creekin" getting all the glamour, most contemporary paddlers simply don't even get this. Now, those of you who are out racing in these downriver races totally do. You start paying attention quick because your boat placement in ANY GIVEN spot, -down to the CUBIC INCH- significantly effects your time.
Anyway, I don't give a RAT's ASS what you all decide. But I WILL race the Diablo. And I WILL get a timed run. I don't care how I finish. It's not the point. I AM curious to see, how I place against my friends. Just
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PaulGamache
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Posted: 11 May 2008 at 6:40pm |
Green Race:
Long Boat
Men
1 . Andrew Holcombe 4:27
2. Pat Keller 4:28
3. Geoff Calhoun 4:31
4. Chris Gragtmans 4:34
4. Toby MacDermott 4:34
Short Boat
Men
1. Pat Keller 4:40
2. Andrew Holcombe 4:52
3. Geoff Calhoun 4:56
4. Jared Seiler 4:59
4. Drew Duval 4:59
Cherry Creek:
Long Boat
1) Dave Garringer, paddling a Cyclone @ 37:30 (2006 Long Boat
Winner)
2) Charlie Center, paddling a Response @ 38:40 (previous two time
winner)
3) Greg Didriksen, paddling an Animas @ 38:45
4) Carlton Gould, paddling a Quantum @ 38:46
5) Rok Sribar, paddling a Pirouette @ 39:12
Short Boat:
9) Eric Christopherson paddling a Magnum @ 40:37(fastest Short Boat
time)
10) Jason Holman, paddling a Dancer @ 41:16
11) Tim Hagan, paddling a Phat @ 41:26 (previous winner)
12) Nick Nyquest, paddling a Gus @ 42:57
13) Thomas Moore, paddling a Burn @ 44:14
14) Ben Zuepo, paddling a Pirouette @ 45:14
Northfork American:
Kayak Long Boats:
1: Dave Garringer - Momentum 35:06
2: Charlie Center - Dancer 35:33
3: Jason Hale - Wave Hopper 36:33
4: Ben Wartberg - Response 36:50
5: Charles Albright - Excel 36:53
Kayak Short Boats:
1: Dan Gavere - Habitat 37:38
2: John Warner - Scream 37:44
3: Luke Newton - Habitat 39:15
4: Albert Romavari - Dragorossi 39:
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jalmquist
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Posted: 11 May 2008 at 8:02pm |
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Can't wait for the argument to begin over what qualifies as long and short...
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Posted: 11 May 2008 at 10:18pm |
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It is standard shorter than 9ft is short, longer is long, not questions.
Anyone claiming that short and long boats can truly compete against each-other is dreaming. If you take two people of equal skill and put one in a long boat and one in a short boat, the long boat will go faster.
In every single respectable race there is a short boat and a long boat category because of this. Also, not everyone has a long boat and not everyone can go buy one for a race.
Put someone in a green machine and someone in a regular creek boat, who is going to go faster?
JP, how is it going to hurt you to compete against people that have the same boat length?
First of all, it is silly to put the two classes into one. Second, how does it hurt any of the long boats here if short boaters have chance to race for real? You won't be racing against them anyway.
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James
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Posted: 11 May 2008 at 10:20pm |
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Wow thats a ton of research Paul...
I did not look at all the times but enough to see a big difference myself.... Still the final call will be posted later this week once I have had a chance to discuss this with the judges and timers.
J
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Posted: 11 May 2008 at 11:42pm |
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Really? Excluding the Green Race, the time difference between the winners of long and short were 3 minutes or more.
In the Green race, the competitors raced in both categories. All of the top competitors had significantly faster times in the long boat category in a race where seconds count.
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dave
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Posted: 12 May 2008 at 12:41pm |
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Bla, bla, bla..... Just rember David and goliath.... that is all.
A surf ski, would kick ass in the long boat race!
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Nomad
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cronar
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Posted: 12 May 2008 at 2:24pm |
As a rough rule of thumb, a boat's top speed is the square root of it's hull length--barring larger power plants (stupid sucky math and physics). So six inches to a foot isn't going to make a lot of difference. Over a longer distance it will add up. Is the race that long where it might make a difference? Look at the CC race results, the boats were all pretty much the same size and there's a 30 second difference between 1st place in each class. I think JP's argument has a lot of merit that skill may be a bigger contributor over gear. Especially true for us weekend warrior types. That said have fun going down the river fast, I like to take my time and enjoy it. -Nick
Edited by cronar - 12 May 2008 at 2:42pm
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Jeff
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Posted: 12 May 2008 at 4:24pm |
I'll be riverside with my aid kit to put all the pieces back together! Or maybe I should be at the starting line to put pieces back together in case this discussion comes to fisticuffs! haha! Can't wait for the Ball!!!!!!! ![]("http://www.professorpaddle.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif")
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"What could possibly go wrong?"
www.flickr.com/photos/jeffdwyer/
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PaulGamache
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Posted: 12 May 2008 at 6:12pm |
No doubt skill plays a huge part in racing, single most determining factor of how one will do in a downriver race. However, bottom line is if two people are of equal skill sets the one in the longer boat will have an advantage. This is shown time and time again by the same racers entering short and long boat classes and the long boat times always beating the short boat times. The course is the same, racers are the same, all other gear is the same, yet the long boat wins. This isn't a big deal but it's important to at least mention the crafts people were in to determine the actual "results" of a race.
It's like getting 11th out of 50 people, 11th isn't bad but if it turns out the 10 people in front of you were all in long boats and you actually got 1st in the shortboats that's 1st out of 40 (if no longboats finished behind you)...if kayak racing actually mattered for anything this would be a huge discrepency in results.
To elaborate on the equation given:
A boat's theoretical top speed in knots (a knot is 1.15 mph) is roughly 1.34 times the square root of the LWL. LWL is the "Length of the waterline".
Jackson Mega Rocker - 8'6
Habitat 80 - 8'4
Nomad 8.5 - ....8'5
LL Remix 79 - 9'
Large Burn 8'4
Long boats:
Dagger Response 11'3
Prion Cyclone 10'6
Prion Tornado 11'5
Dagger Outburst 10'10
Dagger Vortex 10'7
Perception Wavehopper 13'2
Dagger Green Boat 11'8
LL Remix100 ~12'0
So for the most part it's not 6"-1', it's at least 1.5'-2' difference in boat length.
Examples: (clearly the LWL is slightly different for each boat but here's a rough estimation):
Habitat 80's MHS (max hull speed) =Sqrt(8.33)x 1.34x1.15=4.45mph
Mega Rocker=4.49mph
Dagger Response=SQRT11.25x1.34x1.15= 5.17mph
Dagger Vortex= 5.01mph
Wavehopper= 5.59mph
In a 20 minute race that gives the Mega Rocker a total distance of 1.48 miles (4.49mph*.33) while the response will be at 1.7 miles in 20 minutes. That's almost a 1/4 mile gap in only a 20 minute race, this is using an example of the same racer on the same course where no other descrepencies exist other than boat length.
The Canyon Creek example is a perfect showing of how skill plays a huge role in time differences. Only problem w/ that example in relation to a short vs long boat argument is that all the racers were limited to boats under 9'0. So everyone was on the same field of play.
The reason that example is different and doesn't really apply is because no one person had a leg up on anyone else other than pure skill. On Icicle or any other race that does not distinquish from Short and Long boats those who are in longer boats even for a 20 minute race will be given a 1/4 mile "headstart" (Mega Rocker vs. Dagger Response figures) on the rest of the field over the length of the course.
It's not a huge deal and clearly kayak racing is about having fun, however to argue that long boats do not have an advantage over short boats is just plain silly.
Advanced vs Expert class distinctions are also a good idea however that brings up the next issue: What determines someone's skill leve
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James
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Posted: 12 May 2008 at 6:42pm |
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Fantastic... There is officially a short and long boat race division. Both will race at the same time while competitors will be judged seperatly. Prizes will be determined and announced on wednesday along with the rest of the competitions.
I understand many races have both at different times allowing for competitor's to compete in multiple different styles, however this year we don't have the time. So your gonna have to pick what you want to compete in, long boat or short boat.
And in Green Style
=< 9 is short
> 9 is Long
James
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jP
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Posted: 12 May 2008 at 7:13pm |
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LOOK AT THIS SHIT STORM!!! I LOVE IT!!!
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jP
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Posted: 12 May 2008 at 7:28pm |
Ok. Paul, I applaud you for going forth and digging up HARD info to prove your point. That's really what needs to happen. I love to engage in these discussions but have to admit I'm too lazy to go find the same info and post it.
And, yeah, I also admit that I was downplaying the obvious difference that boatlength plays in speed. But obviously 2' or 3' will undoubtedly make a difference. I did fieel it was important to mention the other variables involved.
My main concern was that, just as someone can't buy a long boat for a race, neither can I afford to buy a short boat for a race, not to mention how stupid I'd feel, considering it's a down river race. all of this shit is why I left the racing to my brother and just ran off with a River-Bong and hid in the canyons listening to the sound of moving water and running rivers.
Edited by wetmouse - 12 May 2008 at 7:30pm
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RemAcct2
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Posted: 12 May 2008 at 8:00pm |
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So does anyone other than JP who has signed up to race own a long boat? Also, JP, is your Diablo over 9'?
The Professor Paddle Ball is an opportunity for boaters to get together, enjoy each other's company, eat some chili, and have a good time. I don't think it was ever intended for this race to be taken quite so seriously...
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