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JoesKayak
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  Quote JoesKayak Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2009 at 8:20am
I just wanted to respectfully disagree with comments that class 6=unrunnable. The definition of class 6 from the International Scale of River Difficulty as published by AW is as follows:

Class VI: Extreme and Exploratory Rapids

These runs have almost never been attempted and often exemplify the extremes of difficulty, unpredictability and danger. The consequences of errors are very severe and rescue may be impossible. For teams of experts only, at favorable water levels, after close personal inspection and taking all precautions. After a Class VI rapids has been run many times, its rating may be changed to an apppropriate Class 5.x rating.


Since it has been run once, that would put Palouse as a class 6. If at some point in the future boaters start hucking it more regularly, maybe then it could have a 5.4 or whatever rating. To me though, Palouse will always be class "nof**kingway"
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  Quote displaced Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2009 at 10:07am
isn't everyone here pretty much talking about "bouldering vs. climbing" rating systems? 

To say, as Ben does that "sunset and palouse are the only significant feats accomplished in a kayak in recent memory" might be true in the bouldering sense of the word.  These are both, obviously, amazing feats.  However, they both only took a matter of seconds.  I think it is very difficult to put the same rating on an act that took less than five seconds, then turn around and use (and compare) that same rating to a feat that took five days (perhaps MFofK).   I don't think it does justice to either (big drops vs. full river trips) to put them in the same rating system.  Perhaps for "bouldering (big drops/rapids)" there should be a R(rapid)1 - R10 scale?  That way, the established runs don't get too tweaked around with this new rating and that new rating, and individual drops (which might be in the middle of a class V run) are given a rating without confusing the rest of the run.

This is a bit of a stretch, but then you could have a run that is described as: a class V run with four R3 rapids, and one R6.
or as in Tyler's case on palouse:  class II with one R8
or the stikine with:  10+ R4's and one R9(site zed).

I think it just gives a more accurate description of what is involved.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2009 at 2:19pm
I think you're making things confusing with all of those "R"s. No Offense meant.
 
And some people's comments sound as if they overlooked my whole point I made in my 2nd or 3rd post (and it was breif, too.). Thanks to Joeskayak for echoeing it:
 
Pickup the Idaho guidebook. Pick up the Bennet Book. Gander at the Gary Korb Book, or any guidebook. Read the AW int'l scale, ect. They all mention class VI as "Rarely Run" or something similar. Look also at how those guidebooks distinguish between whole runs and rapids and how they are rated. I think the existing rating system is fine, if loose and vague at times.
 
I'd argue that these precedents, as they exist in print over several decades, should continue to have weight, to keep the scale grounded to something objective.
 
Yes the scale is subjective. But it's up to individuals to inform themselves about this larger landscape of subjectivity: Actually knowing how California interprets the scale vs. West Virginia, or the commonalities between 5 or so relavent guidebooks. There is an AVERAGE subjectivity that provides us with a rough framework to evaluate and communicate these rapids, runs and rivers.
 
People will always infuse their own individual opinion into the mix. But it is up to all individuals to be grounded to some standard, which is what we currently have.
 
I understand how the I-V scale looks when plotted on a J curve. Within the class V zone, there is a wide variance of difficulty, hazard, and consequence. It does follow that while standards are important, so must the rating syatem adapt to new standards, hence the V.3 ect. I'm just saying it should be integrated with what's already been established, otherwise it is arbitrary and doesn't help to comminicate anything.
 


Edited by wetmouse - 29 Apr 2009 at 2:20pm
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  Quote RemAcct2 Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2009 at 2:45pm
JP, you always like to rub it in how some of us can't get our hands on the Idaho guidebook 
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JoesKayak
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  Quote JoesKayak Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2009 at 3:25pm
Leif... Idaho the whitewater State by Grant Amaral... you can get used copies on Amazon for around $45 and up.

Or I'll sell you mine for $450. 
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  Quote RemAcct2 Replybullet Posted: 29 Apr 2009 at 5:05pm
Last time I checked amazon, they started at $100.  Prices are down somewhat now; I guess its the economy.

I wonder when the copyright lapses so we can take it to Kinkos?
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  Quote STLboater Replybullet Posted: 30 Apr 2009 at 8:10am
We need to find someone who is willing to break their book at the bindings and then create a bunch of blackmarket books.  Its for the greater good!
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Liz
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  Quote Liz Replybullet Posted: 30 Apr 2009 at 8:21am
This is off the topic of the off-topic, off-topic, BUT does anyone know what the good California guide book is?
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water wacko
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  Quote water wacko Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2009 at 5:54pm

A Cali book I like is written by two guys. Chuck Stanley and Lars Holbeck(rip).

"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman
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  Quote James Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2009 at 6:05pm
Dang it brett... PM that kind of thing. You re-surfaced the New Waterfall Record, and the first thing I though was ... Who the heck went bigger than Palouse.... Not guidebook  
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  Quote water wacko Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2009 at 6:25pm
he he
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." ~Howard Thurman
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