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AaronS
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  Quote AaronS Replybullet Topic: Green Gauge(s)
    Posted: 21 Dec 2010 at 11:15am
OK...the PP report of the Green River guage says 1260, but when I click the link on the Rivers page and open the NWRFC report it says 1060.  And then when I look at the AW/USGS site it says 1120...WTF?
 
When we ran it on Saturday I thought it was at 1300, Dave said he thought it was at 1400, and someone posted a wood alert on the AW website claiming that the level was between 2000 and 2200 that day.  How's a guy to know what the  levels are?
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  Quote doggievacation Replybullet Posted: 21 Dec 2010 at 11:37am
Personally, I trust the guys that are running the dam:  the US Army Corps of Engineers.  Here's a link to their charts and graphs.  Shows inflow, outflow, reservoir elevation, etc.

http://www.nwd-wc.usace.army.mil/nws/hh/basins/data.html?grn+hah
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jP
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 21 Dec 2010 at 12:01pm
Yeah, probably the best bet--
But remember what Obi Wan said to Luke:
"Luke, Let go! Trust your feelings".
 
Once I happened to run into Ben (he's actually been paddling a long time) on the river and he reminded me that while computer driven data can be insatantaneous, informative and really cool, it is also important not to rely overly heavy on such technologies.
 
In other words: if you really want to unwrap the mysteries of the Green and it's flow,
You need to be out there checking it out in person, and just paddling it a lot.
 
 Then it won't matter what it is flowing because you'll have such a range of flows under your belt . If you show up and it's ripp'n high, you don't have to put on, and your experience at all those various flows will allow you to plainly see where you want to set your personal "high water mark", or limit.
 
Just go paddle it and don't worry about the flow. Dave is a good one to reference though. Perhaps as good as the next best thing to the dam operator.
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  Quote jP Replybullet Posted: 21 Dec 2010 at 12:10pm
( I mean, 1260, 1120, and 1060, you're basicly talking about the same water level: boney LOW. That's not a qualitative statement, just a descriptive one.
 
Now- 1300-1500 is starting to be a reasonable "Low".
 
I hear ya though, that a discrepency between 1400 and 2200 is a wide one. because 2000 and up is getting you into the basic "medium" bracket, depending on who you ask. The small rocks are covered more and the banks are more fully filled in.
 
1400- 2200 though is some good boat'n on the Green, no matter which section you choose to run.
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  Quote AaronS Replybullet Posted: 21 Dec 2010 at 1:32pm
Yeah, I know what you mean about setting my own guage.  I've now run it three times and I know I liked it a lot better at what I thought was almost 1900 than at what I thought was 1200.  That being said, I loved it either way.  I just want to know how to think about which river I'm going to be seeing on any given day and wasn't sure if any of the guages were reliable enough to match my personal experiences.
 
Based on my limited experience, I would agree that 1400 to 2200 is right in my wheelhouse (of enjoyment, anyway).  I just wanted to know that what I thought was 1400 isn't actually 1020.  I'll use the Corp page that John posted above.  Sounds like the best info available.  Thanks for the tips.
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  Quote arnobarno Replybullet Posted: 21 Dec 2010 at 2:02pm
Okay, there is a reason why this is complicated. You have to consider where the gauges are located and the timing between the gauges.

The information that the Corps publishes is inflow and outflow w.r.t. the reservoir. The reservoir (and gauge) is roughly 7 miles above KP State Park.

Roughly four miles downstream from there, is the USGS Palmer gauge. So, water released at t=0, reaches this gauge at t=x (how long does it take for the water to travel 4 miles?). Furthermore, there is water that comes in from the sides (usually pretty minor compared to the outflow), and, importantly, it measures water *AFTER* Tacoma has diverted water for its drinking supply. This is about 100 cfs historically but they are trying to divert more, I believe.

So, there is always a difference between these gauges, one of timing and one of diversion/extra inflow.

Now then, when you put on the river at KPSP, you are 3 miles downstream from the gauge, so again, you are on the flow that existed at the gauge 30-60 minutes ago. Clearly, this timing difference is only really important if the flows are varying greatly. If the Corps is raising the outflow by 500 cfs/hour, it matters. If it is flat or a small amount, it doesn't matter much.

To illustrate this final point, consider a very flashy creek like Pilchuck. People often look at a rock at the take-out to judge flows. Well, the water that is flowing past that rock, flowed by the put-in 2 hours earlier. The flow that you'll be on, could be significantly different (higher or lower) when you put-on. You should look at the rock when you take-out to get a better judge of the water that you had. Of course, that doesn't do you much good in terms of making a decision whether the flow is too high or low to safely paddle. This is in contrast to the visual gauge on CC Stilly which is at the very first rapid, so the water you see there, is the water you'll roughly travel with (yeah, I know you might portage, play, etc. that changes this equation).

Bottom line: Go paddle and have fun!
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arnobarno
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  Quote arnobarno Replybullet Posted: 21 Dec 2010 at 2:15pm
I should have said, when you put on at KPSP, you are 3 miles downstream from the PALMER gauge.

So, IMHO, that Palmer gauge is the best gauge to use.
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JoesKayak
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  Quote JoesKayak Replybullet Posted: 21 Dec 2010 at 3:21pm
Yeah, as Arn pointed out, theres multiple gauges on the Green... so all of those levels quoted could all be legit on one day. It's likely that the folks calling out for 2200 were looking at the Auburn gauge which is well below the gorge and picks up many side creeks.

I always use the USACE basin summary when looking at the Green since it shows multiple data points... inflow to the reservoir, outflow and precipitation.

http://www.nwd-wc.usace.army.mil/nws/hh/basins/data.html?grn+hah
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  Quote arnobarno Replybullet Posted: 21 Dec 2010 at 4:38pm
Yeah, I know we are beating a dead horse now...

I just wanted to emphasize something else about the gauges on the Green. While I believe the USGS Palmer gauge is most indicative of the actual water level in the gorge, the most important gauge to look at is the Corp gauge that John and Joe mentioned.

The reason for this is that it is the gauge that shows the inflow. Everybody on this board (and others) has conspiracy theories about how the Corps manages the outflow to mess with the kayakers. Still, if the Corps is trying to maintain the dam level, the inflow is the best predictor of future outflow. So, if the inflow is high (for what you want) but the outflow is still in your range, be careful.
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Courtney
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  Quote Courtney Replybullet Posted: 21 Dec 2010 at 6:57pm
Aaron,
When I left the house Saturday the Green was running 1410 according the USGS.  When I got home it was still running the same thing and I would say that the level seemed right to me when we were on the water.
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  Quote dave Replybullet Posted: 22 Dec 2010 at 7:36pm
I have been running the gorge for 20 years and I use the Nozzle to gauge the level roughly. It felt and looked to be in the 1400 range on Saturday. That is a good paddle breaking level....
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